BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)

(Inemia) #407

okay, but lets look at apoc, you need 4 wounds, so the total resource cost to cast it is 3 GCDs and 4 runes. giving you a 3-4.5 second cast time on a “dot” that does a boatload of damage for its cost. nevermind the fact that it’s “cast” is the wound setup which also adds 2 festerstrikes and 4 wound pops to the total damage output just for casting one spell.

grpyro just needs 4 seconds and some mana. we aren’t GCD starved when you look at GCDs as a resource you need to conserve and manage properly.

DT is the one CD that should absolutely be off the GCD due to the fact that it does nothing on it’s own, but the devs are hellbent against players auto-macroing stuff, which PVErs would do if was off the GCD.

not really, ebgs in particular require a decent level of attention from players if you want to secure a win on a regular basis, when games are no longer “chance” you understand this. the random player queue is the only thing shared with LFR and isn’t the deciding factor in difficulty. but that is a completely different discussion.

UB shouldn’t be in your rotation, which is why i stated it was useful in pvp and not pve, the entire problem with pve theorycrafting is that people look for sims and spreadsheets to tell them the most optimal build. this locks you into certain talents. the way pvp works means you can actually do genuine “in your brain” theorycrafting and use your favorite talents for the situations you find them useful.

the problem i have seen with that mentality is that people get the easy to grasp part down and think they have mastered the class, so they stop looking deeper into the spec and talents. combine this is the toxic elitism and peacocking that is prevalent in the community and you end up with 3 foolish words: “unholy is easy”

(Tyfus) #408

You’re just overestimating the depth. People who have actually mastered the class have pointed out a lot of the same problems with Unholy. If you want to turn a blind eye and pretend it’s a fun and complex spec in bgs, it’s your $15.

I’d rather fix the issues and get a spec that’s fun and interesting to play, beyond just pressing a bunch of cooldowns that are lacking in meaningful interactions.

(Inemia) #409

no i think you are underestimating it. how many “masters” still have their pet functions on auto? how many “masters” haven’t built full custom weakaura UIs for pulling every last bit of damage or utility out of certain spell combinations?

it’s hard to define mastery, often times with unholy if you think you have it all figured out, you start looking at a spell a certain way or find a new use for one and realize you didn’t know as much as you think you did.

im not denying that unholy doesn’t have problems, our ST builds are painfully boring, but wounds are not the issue there, if we still had necrotic plague that would be boring too. the problem is that our output does not feel sufficient relative to the effort we put in.

yes, we need changes, but they need to be in the reward part not the mechanics, and we don’t need a bunch of actually useful talents scrapped again because the PVE community can’t get’s it head out of it’s sims.


Course the big issue right now is some of the mechanics people want looked at and changed simply will not happen during this expansion.

In BFA our mechanics are done, it’s highly unlikely that we will see any major mechanical changes at this point.

The best we can hope for now is band aids. Boost the damage of Fester, SS, heck even DC, to make us a bit better ST wise, throw some damage into Gargoyle to.
I wouldn’t worry about our AoE Reaping damage cause honestly reaping is likely going away soon, and crazy aoe damage is less of an issue without reaping.

Utility wise I doubt we will see any major changes during the expansion at this point. We have what we have, unless they do something radical like do away with the idea of PvP talents, which is unlikely.

After that our best hope is that at least one of the class devs actually start playing a DK so they can at least kind of sort of start understanding the frustrations with the class.

(Tyfus) #411

I agree that they’re not re-designing the specs in 8.2, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t still make small changes alongside the numbers tuning.

The current festering wound mechanic is a terribly lazy and shallow system. But it can be tweaked to be better in lieu of a redesign.

  • Reduce FeS cost to one rune.
  • Let SS/CS have a chance to burst additional wounds on the main target to shake up the ST rotation a bit.
  • Reduce Unholy’s GCD.
  • Remove some CDs from the GCD.
  • Allow Sudden Doom to be used on Epidemic.

These wouldn’t be that hard to implement and would improve a clunky spec enough to let us wait for the next round of changes where we can tackle talent redesigns, utility, and better gameplay.

(Gurthäng) #412

You forgot to add and thats my opinion. I for instance like it. Its the best iteration for unholy since the original from wotlk.


Weve never recovered from the 12% aura nerf we received in Beta. Opinions on wounds aside…the spec functions mostly ok. Our numbers just suck.

Its just unacceptable that specs like shadow priest can be 10-20% ahead of everyone else and we cant get our aura reduced/removed. As the 2nd worst spec in the game.

(Tyfus) #415

Definitely need a boost in numbers. It’s a good thing they took so much away in the name of making the game easier to balance, then followed it by some of the worst balancing we’ve seen.

I am curious what some people find fun about wounds. They’re clunky to spread, clunky to spend, don’t have a lot of interesting interactions, and aside from some niche AoE scenarios don’t feel all that good to use. I’ve had more fun with almost any other iteration of DK.

(Myronas) #416

Im of this sentiment as well. I dont resent the fact that people think it is fun, but when you compare it to necroplague or wrath’s iteration I start to have trouble finding a reason to say “it is fun”.

My DK is my main. And if Wounds stay for the next expansion, I wont play.

(Ryudaraku) #417

They brought back the “Scourge Strike + Debuff = Extra damage mechanic” That was the core of the spec between Wrath and Mists of Pandaria.

That is because they aren’t supposed to be an AOE mechanic, which is why Infected Claws and Pestilence existing make no sense.

Well that is because everyone cried about the RNG factor of Applying wounds in Legion.

(Gurthäng) #418

Pestilence exists because a bunch of ppl were crying in beta that they needed something to spread wounds in aoe now we have that. IC kinda makes sense, it makes your ghoul slight more powerful while transformed in aoe with the eventual wound application in st when not. The row its in is kinda wonky tho.

(Ryudaraku) #419

Well Yes, but prior to that The stated intent was that Wounds weren’t meant as an AOE mechanic, Infected Claws probably should have always been “Primary” Target.

(Gurthäng) #420

idk one talent for spreading wounds in aoe on a 1 min cd i think its fine, for a more bursty build. Now pestilence is extremely niche, only worth taking if you pulling 10+ mobs on top of each other to abuse festermight.

(Inemia) #421

spreading wounds provides an alternative to epidemic as an aoe,

IMO pestilence would be better if it was like the old school version, and spread the wounds you stack on a single target among the adds in combat. stack 6 wounds, hit pest and now 6 targets have 1 wound each.

(Ryudaraku) #422

it’s fine but rather pointless.

I really don’t give a crap about the abuse of Festermight beyond the fact that they completely removed Sublety Rogues AOE mechanic based on it being good on a very specific type of raid fight. All of our abilities just do everything, and only Virulent Plague does it remotely well.

(Tyfus) #423

It’s similar but at that time we had more diseases, which on their own had more functionality and required a bit more management.

Do you have a source on this? I don’t recall them ever having said that. Having a main mechanic that’s not intended to be used in the majority of situations is pretty short sighted.

People were right to complain about the RNG of wounds when they also take so much setup. Having your opener get messed up 'cause of FeS RNG was annoying.

The only RNG that would be fun with wounds would be if SS/CS had the legendary bracer effect baked in there to allow for some variety.

The only thing less fun than popping 3 wounds in a row with 3 SS/CS right now, is AoE situations with few/no wounds on mobs and using SS+DnD since the damage is pretty underwhelming.

(Lahgtah) #424

After some time, I realize the main reason why played BfA less and less, until I finally just stopped altogether, wasn’t because of the whole of the game. It wasn’t even because of unholy’s numbers or lack of movement speed.

The reason I stopped was because the spec is just too shallow. There’s not much nuance, not much in the way of little tricks and neat things you can do. Everything’s just basic and laid out. Once you read the tooltips of your core abilities, you pretty much know all there is to know about the spec.

There’s no experimentation, no different builds to play about with. It’s the little things that’s missing. It’s the little things that add up.

I feel constrained and colorless, just a generic AoE melee DPS with no sense of identity beyond that. It’s no longer about “what can I do as a DK?”, but about “what can I do as an AoE DPS?”

I’ve been playing a few other games in the meantime, older RPG’s and the like, and it’s helped me come to this conclusion. It’s not about the spell effects or melee animations, neither about the numbers they can churn out that make a spec or class unique, but how differently they affect the gameplay; what different things they can and cannot do that sets them apart from other classes. The rest is important, yes, but ultimately secondary before this crucial aspect.

I just don’t feel attached to my DK anymore because there’s no identity to attach oneself to. First time since 2012 that I let my sub run out, but it kind of already did since I stopped playing back in late November.


ya thats the saddest part is Ion and Lore have dumbed the game down so much ; ;

dk has no depth anymore and every button u push means nothing cuz all of your dmg is from auto attacks and a fire and forget dot wtf?

(Ryudaraku) #426

Not really, even the much vaunted “Necrotic Plague!” required only a few extra Festering Strikes to Maintain, and our diseases have had zero functionality beyond damage since Cata.

Legion Alpha was when they said it if I recall, and I haven’t seen anything stated about them changing that mindset and most “main mechanics” are designed around single target usage, with some cleave baked in or with an AOE power as an alternate spender.

That is because Festering Strike’s cost should have been, and Should be 1 Rune. People are still treating Festering Strike like it is Cata where it had a reason to cost 2 runes.

Except that people complained about the RNG of the Bracer.

That is because they hit like wet noodles.

(Tyfus) #427

Highly disagree here.
Necrotic Plague had a fair bit of ramp up, it was punishing if the player wasn’t able to manage resources/cds properly to keep it up, and conversely was rewarding with great steady damage.

Current resource/wound management has been simplified a fair amount compared to previous versions and has no real pay off for doing things right.

The Necrotic Plague playstyle was far more thematic for Unholy too, where you’re the epicenter of waves of death and disease, not just popping pimple points.

If they’re not going to give us alternative talents to resemble this playstyle again, they really need to improve wounds.

As stated earlier, I agree with this. There is no reason why it should be costing 2 runes currently.

In that context, yes it was annoying because it could result in wild fluctuations in our damage. If they narrow the RNG range (as they did to improve FeS/Apoc) and have it work off the main target only, it should be more than fine and also introduce some variety to the boring SS/CS spam.

Agreed again, but even if they hit for lots of damage it would still be boring because there is no chance of variety. We need tuning and playstyle improvements.