BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)


(Fookí) #387

not to mention, trash doesn’t count towards anything in raid settings… which is why eye beam and other aoe skills are overlooked.


#388

Festering especially should get a boost, but I’m certainly not going to cry if Scourge Strike gets a buff as well.

I also think they could add some shadow damage to festering strike, help out a bit on the issue of mastery in single target.


(Gurthäng) #389

They have to buff everything except VP, pets and epidemic to make UH be somewhat competitive in raids rn. Or maybe make gargoyle viable for pure ST.


(Ryudaraku) #390

Festering Strike already has an Attack Power value equal to Scourge Strike, Death Coil and Festering wounds combined, if they are going to play the “Buff Single Target damage by over buffing something into the sky” again they can do that with Death Coil.

Like they did in Legion, Funny how they were willing to buff Scourge Strike Before Legion, but not after.

It has passive cleave in DND, it is our Baseline AOE Mechanic.

We have talents that can Apply Wounds AOE…randomly.

It is a Full Power cleave with no Target Cap. It is terrible because the DnD Cleave is a terrible mechanic.

Yes and buffing Scourge Strike and Wounds to where it should be will make that strategy quite a bit more practical for other situations.

There are places outside of raids, ones that they balance around, Eye Beam also isn’t a full cleave effect, the non primary targets take less damage.

We are mostly agreed there Festering Strike is fine, but frankly the amount of buffs that are needed to make our other ST good is probably going to break something else.


(Gurthäng) #391

Did you actualy read what i said or you just ignore the point to fit your viewn?
SS cleave in aoe is negligible unless you do a lot of setup beforehand which is unrealistic in raids on most cases or are specced specialy into spreading wounds which only works in a very niche situation, i.e. pulling 20-30 mobs at once in dungeons which you can be sure not even 1% of the player base can do.
Buffing SS and even wounds wouldnt break anything, specialy since festermight will be gone next expansion.


(Ryudaraku) #392

And if you buff Scourge Strike you risk pushing that tactic down from 20-30 mobs to a more normal amount of mobs.

Obviously Blizzard Disagrees since they only pure Single Target buffs we have received since 2016 have been Death Coil Focused.


(Gurthäng) #393

Not really since the power or festermight scale with the ammount of mobs you pille up together, would just make UH good for smaller/cleave pulls when you dont have the time to setup wounds around properly. Even if you do have the time you should be rewarded by the ammount of setup youre doing with higher dps.


(Gurthäng) #394

Mostly cause DC was our lowest hitting ability since then. Before the last buff DC was doing less damage than an auto attack. In legion hitting DC was actualy making you lose dps.


#395

Anti-Magic Zone should be baseline.

Mythic CoS once again shows zero reason to bring DKs. Would have a slim chance if Anti-Magic Zone is baseline.


#396

I wish the devs would explain the reasoning for turning AMZ into a PvP only ability.


(Krissignacia) #397

and unnerfing it to where its useful again


(Tyfus) #398

I don’t even know why I’m even bothering since feedback seems to just disappear into a black hole, but here goes…

Wounds
They’re too restricting and dull for our main system.

In AoE, they don’t feel good because they make us very dependent on DnD and we can’t spread them efficiently (restricted to RNG talents/abilities). They require too much setup when there are classes that press 2 buttons, blow up the screen, and do the same or more damage on regular sized trash packs.

In ST, they’re just plain boring! SS/CS always popping just one makes our ST rotation predictable (and weak).

They could reduce the rune cost of FeS and also bake in the legendary bracer effect into SS/CS, so that it pops 1-2 or even 1-3 wounds on main target only. They could even move the number of total wounds allowed back up to 8, with apocalypse staying as it is. For AoE, they could allow FeS to splash wounds to secondary targets or let VP eruptions apply a wound to their target.

Wounds need more fluid interactions with the other abilities to be good. Festermight is a step in the right direction but I’d rather have the synergy in the spec, not as a part of rental gear.


Utility
Like many others, I’d love to have AMZ/DarkSim return to PvE. Also it’d be nice if Control Undead wouldn’t dismiss our pet or at least allow us to use DT on the temporary pet.

If grip/positional utility is our thing, give us some more tools around it. De-couple the Grip of the Dead talent from DnD (maybe bring back Desecration)!

We could have AMZ baseline and then have a talent that turns it into a reverse Ring of Peace, where you trap the enemies inside of it and reduce the damage taken by the party from the trapped mobs.

Give Death’s Reach a secondary effect, where gripping a mob through other mobs has a knock-back/down effect on them.


Talents
A lot of talents need redesigns or tuning. The whole point of this talent system was having meaningful choices, but right now most people just switch between IC/AWS and BS/EF on T56 and T57.

CS, UB, Harbinger, PP, Defile, Pestilence, Army of the Damned, and Summon Gargoyle are all pretty much dead. That’s a large portion of our talents!

The worst offender is probably T100, which should be our spec defining talent. I don’t think I’ve changed to something other than Unholy Frenzy since I was leveling.


Army of the Dead
I love this spell, but it’s had its time in the sun. I really think that it should be a passive that summons an undead minion for every X wounds spent. Then we could have talents that modify these minions in various ways like explosions, Legion style debuffs, or providing new diseases.


GCD
Even after all this time, GCD feels slow. A problem that’s exasperated by our many cooldowns and BfA’s negative GCD changes. Give us back our 1.0s GCDs, consolidate some CDs, or just take some off the GCD.


Pets
Pets still die far too easily to certain boss abilities. It’d be nice to be able to heal them again, given the cd of raising them again. Also can we speed up the process of ghouls getting out of their graves? Feels like an eternity…


DC and Epidemic
DC being a wet noodle like CS/SS is not news to anyone, but back in WoD it actually reduced the CD of DT in a noticeable way. Right now, it barely helps move things along. It’d be nice if the CDR was improved or it was given another effect to offset its lacking damage.

Getting Epidemic v2 has been one of the few improvements to the spec this expansion. But, it feels bad to get Sudden Doom procs in the middle of an AoE rotation. Why can’t we just get a choice of Epidemic or DC with Sudden Doom?

Perhaps Epidemic could also reduce the CD of DnD or allow each eruption to have a small chance at resetting its CD.


Playstyle
All things considered, this’d be a minor gripe but I’m not sure why Unholy has been turned into such a bursty spec. To me it’s always been the spec that should do strong and steady damage, delivered via waves of death and disease. However, with Arbiter back in Legion and the current Army of the Dead we just spike up in damage during CDs, only to crash down just as hard.

I really wish they would give us the option for strong and steady damage, like the Necrotic Plague days.


#399

I’ve been thinking about DC, I believe one of the possible concerns with this ability was giving DKs to strong of a ranged attack, now I’m not sure if that’s true, but if it is, they should be able to modify it so it does more damage the closer to the target the DK is.

So in melee range it hits like a truck and becomes weaker the further out you are. Again that’s if the weak damage is due to it being a ranged attack.


#400

for the love of GOD STOP im so tired of this we need a buff but it comes with a negative effect!!! why is unholy dk the only spec in the game designed like this we just need buffs no BS tied to it no other class/spec gets a buff and also gets a penalty tied to it.
Deathcoil should be our main big dmg/burst esp for how much it cost


(Inemia) #401

unholy is a setup spec. :woman_shrugging:

grip of the dead+defile is used in bgs and ebgs.

i like this idea, essentially a reverse dragon charge, seems extremely OP though.

they just really need a numbers tweak, UB and gargoyle are useful in ebgs, pestilence is used in M+.

the biggest issue is that our PVE optimal talent builds are just plain boring to play, PVP lets you take any talent build you want and do well with it. we’re stuck between fun but suboptimal builds or boring optimal ones. however the big thing to remember is that the talents outside the PVE optimal builds are not useless, you are just not in the right context to take advantage of them.


(Tyfus) #402

Setup is fine when it has payoff. Right now our setup is way too much compared to specs with more burst and there is no relative payoff outside of large pulls.

Isn’t that why we have pvp talents?

Not all of them are just about tuning. UB is an extremely lazy talent as a 45s fire and forget DoT. Army of the Damned is just a band-aid for a CD that’s way too long and should be fixed in other ways IMO.

Not sure where you get your info for pvp but according to most stat websites, it doesn’t look like any of those talents are overly used in bgs.

Even in PVP there are clear choices on most tiers. The most immediate solution would be to tune the numbers, but in the end we have a boring and less than intuitive design (wounds mainly) that people mistake for something better due to Unholy’s strong fantasy and its number of abilities relative to the sad state of other 2 button specs.

They need to balance the numbers and either finish implementing wounds to something better than purple combo points or scrap it altogether.


(Inemia) #403

thats what i mean about numbers tweaking, our damage simply needs to be worth the setup, complexity, and effort. classes should not be even in damage, they should have a split based on those 3 factors. the complex setup specs should be at the top, and the two button braindead specs should be at the bottom.

all of our talents can be pvp talents if you can pvp well, our specific pvp talents are just the stuff the devs do not want us using in pve.

not every talent needs to be some super multi-level interacting spell. UB is simply nice to have a dot style pressure in pvp when you combine it with a bunch of other dots.

i don’t think any of those websites are reliable sources of information. you can sim an optimal ST build, and maybe even an optimal AoE build, but bgs and ebgs in particular are so diverse that you really need a wide range of abilities, other wise you lock yourself into a particular playstyle which can be exploited against you.

not really, if you know what you are doing you can play with any random talent build and do well. high level rated needs exact crafted builds for the comp you are facing, everywhere else you can just go with whatever. maybe not armies of the damned, but everything else is workable.

i don’t think the spec should be intuitive at all, it should be hard to figure out. there is nothing wrong with having hard classes and easy classes. seeing someone do well on a hard spec that you can barely play is often inspiring. its the performance equivalent of seeing that mythic raider all decked out in bis.


(Tyfus) #404

You don’t need to blow as many GCDs as Unholy on setup to still have complexity. No spec is really complex right now, or at least none that I’ve played. Unholy is bloated and clunky though.

nonsense

With the current bare bone specs, yeah it should. At the very least it should still be better than a fire and forget CD.

I’m afraid I’m going to take their data over yours.

Yikes. Yes they should be.


(Inemia) #405

but what are you blowing them on? isn’t apoc and gargoyle really just a big dot when you consider how the damage works.

seriously, try it. i did this in legion, i went bging with every single talent. some work better than others obviously, but there is a situation for just about every talent.

compared to ebon fever? UB being a 45sec CD means you need to use it when it counts. tying it with other dots in pvp allows you to alternate styles of pressure, between strikes, summons, and dotrot.

that’s your prerogative.

no, they shouldn’t. there is nothing wrong with stuff being hard to figure out. a lot of us have been playing for a long time, and playing other much harder video games for even longer. catering to all types of players means having some stuff be hard to play and hard to figure out, be it arena comp, mythic raid, or certain classes.

look at fighting games, they have their easy characters that you can button mash, and their hard characters that only masters can play well. that is how classes should be split, some are easy, some are hard. they should not all be easy, some classes should have a skill based barrier to entry.


(Tyfus) #406

All damage is a DoT if you’re going to look at it so pedantically.

BGs are essentially the LFR of PVP, so you’re not saying much.

I didn’ say Ebon Fever was good either. It does have better numbers and changes your rotation somewhat so still better than UB.

Ideally it’d be easy to grasp and hard to master, so yes it should be intuitive. There is nothing hard about consulting sims/spreadsheets, it’s just plain annoying.