BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)

(Inemia) #312

thats a rather pointless waste of time and resources.


It’s not something I would wanna see, just an idea that crossed my mind. I would rather they fix Frost and Unholy properly.

Unholy should focus on diseases and not have our damage tied to a 8 min CD. I’d like to see Festering Wounds removed, and keep them only if talented into Bursting Sores for those who want that playstyle.

(Inemia) #314

thats an interesting DK main you aren’t posting from.

(Veranolth) #315

Forgot to swap characters.


(Inemia) #316

the reality is that 99% of the complaints about unholy’s playstyle are related to pve where you are siloed into the best mathematical spec. you don’t have the grey area to play around in like you do in pvp.

in pvp most of the complaints about our playstyle don’t exist. want lots of fire and forget summing like demo lock? take reanimation and gargoyle. want lots of diseases and less festering wounds? take EF or UB and get 3x harrowing decay, want a melee class with no pets and focused on strikes? you can already do that too with talents, pvp talents, and azerite traits. personally i take a mixed build and end up with a little bit of all of it, melee striking, builder spender with wounds, dots, pets, summoning.

the problem is if you take the PVE dps spec and do nothing but ST boss kills the spec will feel bad, but in pvp it feels great. blizz needs to bridge the two.

(Veranolth) #317

I do agree in PvP it feels somewhat better, although I don’t like Reanimation (damage in % of enemy health is something I do not think is a healthy design), and Gargoyle’s CD is way too long.

Even then I’d rather see Wounds go. Make Scourge Strike trigger the Virulent Plague Eruption mechanic instead, and maybe make VP stackable, then extend the duration with Festering Strike. Epidemic could spread our disease like it did in Legion beta.

(Inemia) #318

reanimation doing 10% damage is nice though, it means you dont’ need to stack strength or burst wounds for festermight. it always does the same amount of damage whether your target is a clothie or a hardened tank with 400k hp. its PVE damage is also predictable, when damaging boss NPCs like van it does 10% of your HP in damage, so you can stack stam or drop a battlestandard to up your damage and dps in ebgs.

you’re right about Gargoyle’d CD, it’s way too long, it literally needs it’s damage doubled and its cd reduced to 2 minutes in order to be competitive. one thing to note though is that the valk still scares the crap out of players who remember it from legion. even though it hits like a wet noodle.

that’s just the wod playstyle, which was boring and predicable. i wouldn’t mind seeing the stacking dot come back as a talent to let you do a multi dot management build, but we don’t need to take backwards steps in design, the current system is better than wod’s.

(Fookí) #319

all they would need to do to balance this is add some multiplier when using a 2H that makes the numbers balance out. how can it work with casters (like my lock) but not melee?

(Inemia) #320

there’s a lot of problems with this phrase, as it simplifies a task without taking into consideration the difficulty of it. for example: “all they would need to do is manufacture some negative matter and we would have warp technology allowing us to explore the universe” see, simple, idk why the best theoretical physicists can’t see how easy it is.

because melee has white damage to consider. a caster can be balanced between DW and staves because they are just stat sticks. its easy to make 1h items have 50% of what a 2H would in stats.

what isn’t easy is balancing the autoattack damage, and in those situations where a single spec can pick between the two, dw usually comes out ahead. how difficult is it to balance this? blizz tried for years and eventually gave up. we even had specific talents for 2h and DW in frost, but they could never balance them.

(Fookí) #321

just curious, but why’s everyone wanting to use a 2H then with frost, if dw’ing is better dps?
as far as autoattacks and white damage, the easiest way to fix that is adjusting the swing speeds. of course you’ll see bigger numbers from a 2H, but that because of its baseline damage is higher. if dw’ing is somehow coming out higher, then slow down their attack speeds or increase the 2H’s. white damage should be the common factor for both to balance towards. it honestly doesn’t seem that hard to me… but i’m no theorycrafter either.

(Inemia) #322

couple reasons, for one nostalgia, as much as 32/39 dw is remembered, so is 2h frost, a couple times it has been really good, like patch 3.1.

another is personal preference, a lot of players want a class with a big 2h weapon that does big hits and big crits. blood is a tank and unholy is a spell caster/dot spec that uses it’s 2h weapon like a staff to channel most of its spells, so that leaves frost.

(Fookí) #323

with UH though, you love haste; attacking with 2 smaller weapons is always faster with less big hits but the same constant output. that’s just my take on it though.

(Inemia) #324

no, unholy is very much about timing and selfcontrol with your 2h, we only stack haste up to the mid 20% range for extra hits on dark arbiter and all will serve, otherwise if you don’t take those talents you can go as low as 18% haste and still do a lot of damage.

right now haste sims well because we don’t have enough mastery on gear to stack it, but in a patch or two we may be hitting 100% or more mastery with already 20% base levels of crit and haste, at which point “more mastery” become words to live by.

(Fookie) #327

i know… this is my dk that i mained last raid tier. it’s not like i only raid with one class.

(Ryudaraku) #328

Yes, because being required to spend time stacking wounds on Council Style fights will not get old after a month?

Unholy has been better than frost through most of the past few expansions, the only times we were really that awful compared to frost was in SoO, but that was because they balanced us around Trinket Procs and had a non-existent 4 set.

No thank you, DW is fine right where it is.

Unless we fix the annoyance that comes with Valk’s last pair of Strikes being “Crit or GTFO” I would rather never see Gargoyle become playable ever again, and Chains of Ice being a nuke would water down our already watered down core abilities

Either Apoc or AOTD need to go, they never should have existed baseline at the same time, but we are at fault for that for REEEEing about “keeping” the shiny little button from our Garbage Artifact.

Because they removed it, that is the only reason. DW frost was generally better than 2H frost in the vast majority of the time anyways.


Obviously I would want any bugs fixed (Magus trait says hello by the way devs).

The point I really was trying to hit on was that in tomb a lot of UH DK abilities built on one another that ended up with the UH Dk feeling very powerful, there were multiple small windows where you did increased damage, and then usually two windows where you did an incredible amount of damage, and the player was adequately rewarded for properly using cool downs and managing resources. The better you did this the better the rewards (damage done).

It’s less about what specifically was done, but how it was done. Abilities built on one another and primary damage wasn’t simply passive damage.

Compared to live where currently the biggest things a DK can do is use Army at the right point (during hero), make sure your pet is alive and not on passive, and make sure you are in range of the boss so that you get as many white hits as possible.

(Ryudaraku) #334

That wasn’t a bug, that was a core aspect of how DA worked.

That is really not true at all, Virulent Plague was 1/3 of our damage and is a gloried maintenance buff, Festering Wounds/Scourge strike did crap all damage and the only Cooldown “management” we had was using The one that went on CD every minute with the one that went on CD every 2 minutes.

The AOTD/Apoc Avenging Wrath affect didn’t actually affect the pets so it didn’t actually matter for that.

When Dark Arbiter Dealt the damage you mean.

I would like that too, but Legion Unholy wasn’t that, it was RNG Sudden Doom Procs and a Vanilla Dot, you can like that if you want, but I sort of would like the mechanics we have to actually interact with each other.

That is every melee class though, and really it is the actual bad part of BFA class design, Auto attacks as a whole have been buffed way out of proportion because they want it to “matter” or some garbage.

(Inemia) #335

getting the last two valk hits to crit was important, but its not as important as you are making it out to be. by the end of legion unholy was pulling so much burst with the valk that getting those last two hits to crit was more for fun than a requirement. same thing with boosting the damage of cold heart.

a lot of that comes down to if you followed a guide with the sim spec or if you played around with talents and builds at all. some builds would let you focus on wounds, i did a few of these to get FW and CS to both crit for well over 1 mil each.

if you are talking about the shoulder’s effect on dark transformation, it most certainly affected all the pets, it was key to hitting max dps in legion.

depends on how you played the spell, did you just let it play passively or did you use procs, pots, and timing to ensure it did max damage? if you did a bunch of work to ensure valk did the most damage, you were manipulating the valk spell to do increased damage, the valk won’t do this on it’s own.

Dhartin is right though, you played on ability on another to do more damage, your description really makes me think you don’t have a proper grasp on how to play unholy.

imo it’s to shorten the gap between bad players and good players. there’s no skill in standing there autoattacking.

(Gurthäng) #336

Its actualy cause they want to melee to stay in range to do damage, ranged were complaning some melee doing the same damage as them from distance.

(Inemia) #337

i have to think that upping the damage of melee specific abilities would be a better counter. but then again i don’t consider unholy being able to do viable dps from a ranged stance to be a real issue.