BFA Frost DK Feedback for 8.3-9.X: We Want Our Stuff Back

(Krissignacia) #41

over on mmo champ dk thread this cought my eye

post #38 of that thread

Frost has needed help for so long its not funny its issues are really core and old, not to mention basically just borne from laziness and the lack of iteration the spec received in legion was criminal.

it bears mentioning that in BFA blizzard has been crutching hard on BoS as a cheap band-aid to cover the playstyle issues. Personally i don’t like BoS (if i wanted to pool I’d play a rogue) and forcing players to take a talent that changes how a spec plays to cover up issues with the core spec is deceptive and lazy.

(Apparition) #42


It’s actually not just Frost it’s all DK specializations have lacked any real focus during alpha through to live release of expansion since Cataclysm prior to that expansion there was work that was done but it was more about a complete dissection of the class and a rebuild changing huge components of the class that was initial design obviously one of the biggest changes was the move from Blood to Tank spec and Frost to DPS spec instead of the initial design where Frost was the Tanking Spec and Blood was a leeching DPS spec.

This was probably the pinnacle of the parabola and ever since then the class has really been one of the lowest priority in terms of relative fixes to core design problems that were actually introduced around the exact same time the make the tank spec switch. Too often classes which have been performing exceptionally well and require very little changes or minor adjustments have been the focus of redesign - Mage, Druid, Rogue. To point out a few that have been worked on significantly and generally in at least one or in some cases two of the last expansions have continuously had alternations and even significant class design elements updated to allow these classes to consistently be close to to the best or the best with at least one of the specializations and in many cases it more often that it’s two of them.

I am not naming those classes to say they couldn’t have utilized some changes or fixes. However, when you have classes that have consistently been challenged with scaling issues and core functional issues you would think that the development group would decide to actually spend considerable time during the development cycle of new expansion to examine the consistent problems and work on a logical solution through several iterations in each phase of the pre-release cycle.

The idea of forcing Frost down the Breath path to be competitive clearly highlights the limits of the current design and the consistent flaws.

  1. If a class is being forced to head in a certain direction then the certain direction should become baseline and then make adjustments to the talents to modify the playstyle around that talent…for example

Make Breath Baseline then have 3 talents one which makes it so the DK is a spinning Ice Storm similar to Bladestorm but it’s frost damage and say on critical strikes it has a chance to freeze the target for X seconds

Second option could focus it to change it from a cone effect to a direct single target attack that once activates passively channels until the DK runs out of Runepower. However it applies a stacking debuff called Frost Bite which increases the Deathknights Damage on that target by 10% per application stacking upto 10 times and lasts a third of the cooldown length so if the Breath Single target has a cooldown of 2 min then the debuff lasts for 40 seconds this could also be modified for PvP differently to maybe only last 15 seconds or something

Third option Frontal Cone similar to now except that as long as the DK remains stationary they receive a stacking damage buff for Obliterate and Frost Strike and then for each 8 yards they move the stacks are reduced by 1 so 16 yards would remove 2 stacks 32 - 4 stacks etc. The maximum number of stacks would be maybe 5 - 10 for example

I am not saying this would be a solution I am merely saying that the class needs a major overhaul and core issues resolved across the board with base elements then changes to talents and the design of the trees to provide some symmetry and game play style choices which are sadly lacking right now for the class. In addition should really have some quality development time which has been sadly lacking for so many years by comparison to other classes.


DK’s need to have some quality development time and several massive iterations as its been sadly left with very little core design resolution, talent symmetry and overall scaling design compared to all other classes from the expansion Mists of Pandaria right through to BfA now. And that is just bluntly appalling and negligent on so many levels


Actually better idea Frost DK’s execute isn’t really an execute it’s a soul tearing and reanimation… Why not have the DK upon ‘executing’ an NPC or Player the DK tears at their souls and then binds that soul to servitude for a period of time… In other words like a Mind Control on players or an additional pet if an NPC. Have it last for 10 seconds on Players and 2 min for NPC’s… Imagine the comedy value of a couple of DK’s destorying a couple of healers only to have them become their little healing slaves to keep the DK alive while they continue to kill their fellow comrades. You could have it have an internal cooldown so it could only do it once per minute in PvP and once per 3 minutes in PvE or something - Think Priests healing angel type effect or something like that

(Krissignacia) #44

im only taking bout frost cuz thats what i know the best. Also i know all specs/classes need more love than they are getting now.

i dont think breath being baseline is a good thing cuz then it will be part of our rota. Then even more people will go do something else

Also that juggernaut thing they said we ere but wasnt the case.

What I want is a dps with a togglable ability that we can go mini tank and the presences helping with movement and blood pres would make us almost tanks

hey @Ithiria that would have been useful in legion for our swords instead of what we got

We need wrath talents back cuz breath needs adjacent talents that mod it to make it friendlier to other abilities


I to want proper speed back with presences with that juggernaut feel.

this class was so much better before legion.

(Krissignacia) #46

a post from general

110 Blood Elf Death Knight

The whole problem with the “Juggernaut like Arthas” motif is… it works for Arthas.

No one else.

Arthas gets away with moving at the speed of a trundling slasher flick villain because by comparison, we’re all dumb teenagers in high heels and no inhibitions. He makes the absolute paragons of both factions look like nothing. When you’re talking a power discrepancy like that, the whole “slow, menacing” vibe works. Yeah, you might be able to outrun Arthas, but that’s all you can hope to do. You can’t kite him to death, you can’t zip around and humiliate him, you can’t snipe him from a distance - all you can do is run and pray.

Problem is, you can’t have that kind of discrepancy in a game where classes are supposed to be more or less equal. Sure, someone’s on top, and the situation will shuffle the deck somewhat, but you can’t have someone running at 50% speed and 2500% capacity in all other areas. The “Run from the unstoppable killing machine” vibe can’t fit into that model.

The Death Knights can’t be implacable destruction because there’s a bare minimum placcability built into the fundamental concept of the game. Balance won’t have it. You have to be a minimum level of vulnerable, and the “horror villain” vibe can’t withstand that fact.

Also, the “dual wielding” image is on its face all about speed and agility - striking fast and as many times as possible. That’s the whole idea on the face of it. Thus, that too flies in the face of the Death Knight as this lumbering, slow moving brute. It doesn’t work.

Blizzard’s described what they want and what they’re going for with the Death Knight, but none of that changes the fact that it’s wholly untenable. Even at the utmost of extremes, if they pushed it as hard and fast as it can go, that “Arthas” vibe cannot be achieved. Not in a fair setting on a fair playing field. In the end, their weapon set says speed, while their mobility is ponderous, and their overall capacity is lacking on all fronts. Death Knights aren’t Inevitable Doom Incarnate - they’re an asthmatic goth mall ninja waddling out of a buffet.

Drop the “I wanna be Arthas” schtick - it’ll never pan out. Bring their mobility up to par, and redesign them to be as fun and functional as the game space will allow.

when asked about wrath walk he had this to say

The image is neat, but not worth the mechanics and doesn’t ultimately pan out. Aka, all the problems with the Death Knight as it currently stands summarized in a single button.

DKs are at the bottom of the mobility pile for a reason, and… who has fun struggling to get from point a to point b…? Find a gnome and ask how much they love getting stuck trying to swim through otherwise shallow water that everyone else can walk through.

It’s the same principle, but all the time always and forever.


Personally I think the Juggernaut model could work, speed wise, in a pve environment, we are fast enough to do what we need to do, and if we truly need a bit more speed we can talent in Wraith Walk, not to mention DA is actually kind of useful in a few fights where you can ignore or at least more easily avoid mechanics because of it.

The issue is DKs haven’t truly been turned into the slow-moving Juggernaut model, the devs basically stopped at the slow-moving part and then didn’t add the extras. DK defenses is just barely middling for some reason, which is beyond silly, Death Strike does help, but it’s a reactive tool, DK DPS should be one of the tankiest if not the absolute tankiest DPS there is, that’s paid for with the having the slowest mobility.

DPS is always tricky, technically you want all your DPS to be within spitting distance of one another, so you can’t just make DK DPS stronger than other DPS classes, course the issue right now is our DPS, ST wise, is pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel. In theory, if the devs truly wanted some sort of Juggernaught feeling for DKs they would add back in an execute kind of ability such as old soul reaper, which thematically fits really well.

But of course all of this is kind of moot, the devs truly don’t want to make DKs Juggernauts, as they’ve done nothing to actually make them thematically resemble that archetype beyond the low mobility.

(Krissignacia) #48


anyway this not quite juggy is tiring either make us whole or return us to wod


so people think they have us this way because the dev team cant deliver on what they said we should be…

Big shocker really im not surprised at all

(Krissignacia) #50

another day another example of wtf ya;ll are doing to our class


Yes I wish I could get that Juggernaut ability and have a ghoul again

Also presences are great for leveling along with a ghoul to keep mobs off of me


Not just for leveling presences help out with everything.

Frost having a permenant ghoul would be something fun to explore.


Heads up, ptr 30430 changed BOS again, to summarize what’s listed:

  • Removed bonus to runic empowerment given specifically to BOS
  • BOS generates 2 runes on start and when it ends

This helps with the fluidity going into and out of BOS - which was an issue and should help with downtime. But, I’m assuming they left BOS upkeep drain the same.

(Krissignacia) #54

That does seem like it would help more

(Rockford) #55

Ok, I’m a bit dumb when it comes to Breath mechanics. Can someone explain how gameplay is adjusted from the above change?

It does sound less rng, which is always a good thing.

(Krissignacia) #56

you dont need full runes cuz it gives you two but you will need a full rp bar i guess


new day
so Breath gives runes at the beginning at at the end
that’s nice I guess
but really when are you guys gonna fix what you broke by now knowing what you are doing?

Really though why aren’t more people supporting this

(Krissignacia) #58

never should have reinvented the wheel just needs some tweeks here n there


I agree that Obliteration shouldn’t be a back and forth and now it’s only during PoF. Which is only 15 seconds now. That’s not enough time to bust out some Oblits.

I also like the suggestion that makes killing machine scale and the same with oblit
And KM procing seperatly on other abilities

(Krissignacia) #60

I would like more of the old dk fantasy to be brought back if unholy gets ita diseases back and they keep their new plague. BP, FF, and EP n maybe wondering. Blood and frost could get 3 with the 3rd being crypt fever. While having ways to apply them. HB spreading all and applying FF