BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Lolaan) #864
10/18/2018 01:54 AMPosted by Darkarchaon
Brutal slash awesome for that upfront damage and short live adds and cleave, bad thing is for ST fights with barely any adds or adds are wide spread its a wet noodle, perhaps make it so when it hits 1 target its damage is increased for example 20% stronger then shred or w/e that way its a useful button to press on ST?
At current tuning it's literally the only talent on the row that's a single target DPS increase. If anything, the other two should be given a single target benefit

10/18/2018 01:54 AMPosted by Darkarchaon
Incarnation should replace berserk or berserk gets reworked its a horrible 3min CD, Incarantion actually feels like a DPS CD that does increase damage. Idea maybe lower the CD? reduce the energy rate to compensate for lower CD? add an effect that buffs the raid in a small way X%? versatility X% or damage boost modifier X%?
Very true. They're buffing Trueshot which is already better than Berserk so it gives me a very, very tiny glimmer of hope that Berserk will get changed too. 30% haste would be vastly superior to 40% cost reduction in pretty much all situations.

10/18/2018 01:54 AMPosted by Darkarchaon
Blood talons maybe a change wouldn't be a bad thing here maybe make it a button on a charge system? button with a 10 second CD maybe or more? longer CD and more damage? i just kinda want a change from the PS/regrowth cycle.
Yeah, I miss being able to use PS/Regrowth defensively, but BT is just too strong to ignore.

(Pawsome) #865
As the expansions have progressed over the years, I feel like we move further away from being a bleed-focused class. More and more damage seems to be funneled into our instants, which I personally find disappointing. I really miss seeing big rake/rip ticks and feeling like those were impactful -- and something to be feared in pvp.

Not sure that's really the case anymore... Just my $0.02

(Ancihcaor) #866
10/19/2018 11:07 AMPosted by Pawsome
As the expansions have progressed over the years, I feel like we move further away from being a bleed-focused class. More and more damage seems to be funneled into our instants, which I personally find disappointing. I really miss seeing big rake/rip ticks and feeling like those were impactful -- and something to be feared in pvp.

Not sure that's really the case anymore... Just my $0.02


Correct me if I am wrong but, aside from MoP (when it was super bleed-centric, especially after 5.2 with RoO), Feral has been relatively balanced between DD and Bleeds over the years.

(Tenshirou) #867
10/19/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Ancihcaor
Correct me if I am wrong but, aside from MoP (when it was super bleed-centric, especially after 5.2 with RoO), Feral has been relatively balanced between DD and Bleeds over the years.


It wasnt in Legion. Well, once the beta was over it wasnt.

When 7.0 went live, it was so bleed centered as to be non-sensical, but with a huge issue, tighter timers and less energy than even Wrath had. Which caused it to be less than fun. As I mentioned on the forums of that time, I was in an odd spot for most. I was going through chemotherapy which screws you up pretty good since you are fatigued all the time. However, I was also a feral who had always excelled at the spec, even in Wrath. It made me realize just how badly done that time was. AKA, no ego making me think it was easy for me and others were bad.

Then the redo came in late legion and that was an even bigger joke, but for a different reason. You have two ways to look at how a class plays. Burst vs consistent or effort vs reward. The issue with the end of Legion was not that damage wise bleed and DD had a large gap, but that those two ways of looking at the spec had a huge gap in DD's favor. You had high burst and consistent damage. You also had high reward for the effort you put in, even if you only put in little effort. This meant that there was no incentive to play bleed.

Now we have those who like the DD build because of its rewards, and those, like me, who have played feral in its bleed centric build since vanilla locking horns. Throw in those who picked it up when it had easy timers and strong bleeds in MoP and what you think is the best style to go for gets even muddier.

That said, I know I liked Wrath the best, Cata brought some nice new toys, but some hiccups as well, and the long timers in MoP took away too much thinking. From WoD on, it just hasnt felt like feral to me.

(Kspire) #868
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(Martei) #869
I see they brought leader of the pack back.. as a pvp talent i mean is that talent ever going to get taken as a pvp talent doesn't seem useful to me. I don't really pvp so I really don't know. I mean i could see it being very slightly useful but would it overtake something else? I thought we wanted it in pve so we had some reason to be taken along since the other specs we compete against do everything better then we do it was going to be our see feral is useful to an extant thing as well.

Especially since all i have seen from the ptr so far is that feral is now doing less damage then on live. Not sure how true that is seeing comments like that make me not want to log onto the ptr and see myself. Mainly because I believe them cause of the track record they have with feral.

Posted whats below in another thread but i think i should put it here in case they still check these threads.

Man when I see beserk I cant help but hate our 3 min cooldown that is absolute garbage in every way its practically tigers fury without the extra 15% damage. its great that you can run out of energy while having it up too I think at times it seems like the reduced cost doesn't activate at least that's what I thought i saw raiding one night. Watched the energy bar drop way like I used 40 energy for a shred.

Sadly now we are possibly going to end up not using incarn anymore cause sticking savage roar on the same row as incarn is basically a don't take this talent since you only get it once every 3 min while you get savage roar the whole time. 6 min fight you get 30seconds of incarn or a 6min of 10% increased damage with haste as well not hard to see which is better.

Oh and guardian druids get shorter cooldown on stampeding roar again.

(Eumaster) #870
Hibernate should be on PS proc.
Cyclone Should be on PS proc, or castable in cast form.
Berserk / Incarnation CD should be lowered to 2min.

(Cluey) #871
10/28/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Martei
I see they brought leader of the pack back.. as a pvp talent i mean is that talent ever going to get taken as a pvp talent doesn't seem useful to me. I don't really pvp so I really don't know. I mean i could see it being very slightly useful but would it overtake something else? I thought we wanted it in pve so we had some reason to be taken along since the other specs we compete against do everything better then we do it was going to be our see feral is useful to an extant thing as well.

Especially since all i have seen from the ptr so far is that feral is now doing less damage then on live. Not sure how true that is seeing comments like that make me not want to log onto the ptr and see myself. Mainly because I believe them cause of the track record they have with feral.

Posted whats below in another thread but i think i should put it here in case they still check these threads.

Man when I see beserk I cant help but hate our 3 min cooldown that is absolute garbage in every way its practically tigers fury without the extra 15% damage. its great that you can run out of energy while having it up too I think at times it seems like the reduced cost doesn't activate at least that's what I thought i saw raiding one night. Watched the energy bar drop way like I used 40 energy for a shred.

Sadly now we are possibly going to end up not using incarn anymore cause sticking savage roar on the same row as incarn is basically a don't take this talent since you only get it once every 3 min while you get savage roar the whole time. 6 min fight you get 30seconds of incarn or a 6min of 10% increased damage with haste as well not hard to see which is better.

Oh and guardian druids get shorter cooldown on stampeding roar again.

Repeating/spreading what you've heard/read but not verified yourself doesn't help, it even has a specific word for it, hearsay.
Log on the PTR and test it, ignore the numbers as that's just tuning. See how it plays, how does it feel?

Last I checked it played alright, the reduced cost on abilities helps alleviate the pacing problems. Currently not getting a crit, preferably two, makes things really tedious as Tiger's Fury doesn't give enough energy to cover two attacks. That felt better on the PTR and I didn't play that long, just while the live servers were down for the weekly maintenance.

10/29/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Eumaster
Hibernate should be on PS proc.
Cyclone Should be on PS proc, or castable in cast form.
Berserk / Incarnation CD should be lowered to 2min.

They should probably be castable in cat form, that's the spec we're playing.

The CD for Berserk/Incarnation doesn't need to be lowered as long as it's balanced around it being longer. Part of that balancing comes down to encounter length though, so it's a bit trickier to get right.

(Ancihcaor) #872
10/29/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Eumaster
Hibernate should be on PS proc.
Cyclone Should be on PS proc

Since they pretty much removed all instant hard CC, I think that's a unreasonable request.

10/29/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Eumaster
or castable in cast form


now that's reasonable.

10/29/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Eumaster

Berserk / Incarnation CD should be lowered to 2min.


Yes I think so too. Same with Celestial Alignment for Balance and all Druid specs Incarnations.

(Strongbad) #873
Bliz, you guys have been doing really good on listening to feedback lately. I think ferals would really be grateful to hear any more insight/updates to the changes that have been made on the PTR so far.

Aside from pure numbers, the new talent arrangements see lunar inspiration competing against sabertooth on our first talent row.
This is the change that has some of the more meaningful impacts on our place style. And it's not totally because these two talents compete with one another, but has a lot to do with the fact Bloodtalons becomes much more controllable for us, the player, with lunar inspiration.

To explain, in a PvP enviornment or even a hectic M+ scenario (this is less common in raids) we are forced to use our instant roots or regrowths outside of the ideal dps rotational usage. To combat that, we currently have the ability to generate combo points with moonfire to save our BT stacks.

The reason this stinks is because ferals are being required to have big draw backs when they adapt to situations. This sort of punishment is really where feral feels it (a quick off topic note on this. This is the same logic why it's so punishing for us to be pulled out of cat form on almost all our abilities. Letting us cast- like claws of shirvallah did- on at least some abilities would really help. Or take forms back off the GCD).

I don't have a solution. You mentioned looking into how Blood Talons works, and that could be exactly the fix needed and you wouldn't need to worry about sabertooth and LI on the same row.

The community is very grateful for the attention and work being put in. But please, don't disappear on us! Being actively involved on our specs future is what we all want and it requires a two way street on communication.
Thanks again.

(Tenshirou) #874
I recently went looking at both feral and guardian talents. Something hit me, 3 of the talent rows dont do anything. When leveling, it comes out to 60 levels of effectively no new talents.

The Tier 30:
Tiger's Dash overwrites normal dash and so doesnt really add anything to the spec.
Renewal... lose more mobility for an unneeded and very weak heal?
Wild Charge is the default choice. It gives you more mobility without sacrificing anything.

Tier 45:
Balance affinity gives you more range on your abilities, nice, but minor now. You cannot really use any of the new abilities though because they knock you out of form and do low damage.
Guardian affinity lets you take a small amount of less damage, could help you survive something. Once again, you have to drop out of form to use anything it gives you, but if you go into bear form, you have a high likelyhood of taking agro and dying since you are not a full tank.
Resto affinity gives you a constant healing aura, not bad, makes leveling a little less annoying. All over again, you have to drop out of form to use the abilities. Way to easy to lose massive amounts of damage to do mediocre at best healing.

Tier 60:
Typhoon, you are feral and you want to keep things from you as you dps? I can imagine a few situations to help keep a tank alive, but that means running in front of the mob. Also, its effects are buggy.
Mass Entanglement, it breaks on damage VERY quickly. Useless in a group and is only useful when alone to run away.
Bash, the default one. It doesnt break, it lets you beat on the mob with ease.

As I said, in the same range, guardian is pretty much in the same boat. That range REALLY needs to just be redone from scratch. It would also open up more talent slots so that we might get closer to not just what we want, but to make ferals more competitive. Take the default choices and make them baseline, then move on from there.

(Evilis) #875
I miss wow-lk...
Savage roar, rip, mangle, rake, faerie fire, shred, fb, and a skill who need a talent to work properly: Tiger's Fury.
Critical cap: 75%
Heal affected by your agility.
When you use FB, your aggro go to sky

I think they could put some legion legendary item effect at 120 lv talent.

(Strongbad) #876
11/05/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Tenshirou
I recently went looking at both feral and guardian talents. Something hit me, 3 of the talent rows dont do anything. When leveling, it comes out to 60 levels of effectively no new talents.

The Tier 30:
Tiger's Dash overwrites normal dash and so doesnt really add anything to the spec.
Renewal... lose more mobility for an unneeded and very weak heal?
Wild Charge is the default choice. It gives you more mobility without sacrificing anything.

Tier 45:
Balance affinity gives you more range on your abilities, nice, but minor now. You cannot really use any of the new abilities though because they knock you out of form and do low damage.
Guardian affinity lets you take a small amount of less damage, could help you survive something. Once again, you have to drop out of form to use anything it gives you, but if you go into bear form, you have a high likelyhood of taking agro and dying since you are not a full tank.
Resto affinity gives you a constant healing aura, not bad, makes leveling a little less annoying. All over again, you have to drop out of form to use the abilities. Way to easy to lose massive amounts of damage to do mediocre at best healing.

Tier 60:
Typhoon, you are feral and you want to keep things from you as you dps? I can imagine a few situations to help keep a tank alive, but that means running in front of the mob. Also, its effects are buggy.
Mass Entanglement, it breaks on damage VERY quickly. Useless in a group and is only useful when alone to run away.
Bash, the default one. It doesnt break, it lets you beat on the mob with ease.

As I said, in the same range, guardian is pretty much in the same boat. That range REALLY needs to just be redone from scratch. It would also open up more talent slots so that we might get closer to not just what we want, but to make ferals more competitive. Take the default choices and make them baseline, then move on from there.


Bliz has already stated that all druid talents have one less throughput row than everyone else. They've sort of acknowledged it's an issue, but as stinky as it is, I doubt it'll be fixed in BfA.

(Ancihcaor) #877
08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Bloodtalons
Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we're not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you're required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn't great).


Any news on BT? This was posted over 2 months ago and we haven't seen or heard from a BT change since. Are you cooking up something to address this for the next ptr build? 8.1 patch is going live December 11th so should we expect the BT redesign to be pushed to 8.1.5?

(Konjunktur) #878
11/10/2018 05:01 AMPosted by Ancihcaor
08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Bloodtalons
Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we're not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you're required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn't great).


Any news on BT? This was posted over 2 months ago and we haven't seen or heard from a BT change since. Are you cooking up something to address this for the next ptr build? 8.1 patch is going live December 11th so should we expect the BT redesign to be pushed to 8.1.5?
This. We need more info on this.

Bloodtalons is the last absolutely mandatory thing that needs to be re-designed / removed for the spec to be fun again in PvP. I've said it before but it needs to:

A) Not be on the GCD. Spending GCDs on other things than dumping combo points at 5CP is just extremely awkward and clunky (especially in a fast paced scenario like PvP where things change much faster than a GCD a lot of the time). No other CP(-like) spec has any weird clunky mechanics like this (Rogues, Ret, WW).

B) Not be tied to PS. The fact that Bloodtalons is tied to PS causes Feral utility to suffer enormously. It makes it so you can't root / heal when it's actually good to root / heal and instead you're forced to do it when it fits the DPS rotation (i.e. when everyone is topped / there's no incoming pressure / everyone's on root DR or there is no good timing because of insta-dispel).

C) Not be extremely susceptible to purge / CC. If you get CC'd or purged on your PS your damage goes to complete !@#$e given how important it is for your damage output.

I'd replace it with Force of Nature from MoP (Rake/Root)... but maybe that's just me.

For the less mandatory things on the list you have:
Hibernate on PS
Mighty Bash baseline (replaced by Faerie Swarm in tree)
Powershifting re-implemented (good first step to not make LI mandatory BiS, melee's shouldn't do damage at range, but this means Feral needs increased mobility)
Stampeding Roar & Dash removing roots (baseline)

(Acken) #879
Log on the PTR and test it, ignore the numbers as that's just tuning.
Being hot-fixed till 8.2.5 is going to FEEL horrible. No execute phase FEELS horrible. Our energy regeneration FEELS horrible. Having a 5th finisher FEELS horrible. Having NO raid utility FEELS horrible. Having the weakest yet one of the longest melee cd's FEELS horrible.

Reduce the CD of Berserk/Incarnation or buff it. Bring back Symbiosis for raid utility. Do NOT give us a 5th finisher and instead just buff Brutal Slash so we can use it for what it was for - instant AoE damage. Compensate for the removal of our haste when it comes to both our energy regeneration and the double nerf to things like rip, rake, and moonfire. DO NOT REMOVE OUR EXECUTE PHASE - instead remove Sabertooth from our talents and keep Blood Scent.

(Acken) #880
Consolidating feral feedback to this one post is NOT WORKING. Since there are no new posts about feral, they simply are taking this as a sign that everything is just fine.

Please lock this thread. Blizzard will only act if they see more activity in the forums. They clearly do not raid/pvp with feral and don't understand how bad the proposed changes are (especially the execute phase). I think they are all too busy playing mobile games.

(Strongbad) #881
As others are saying. Bloodtalons needs to be addressed. We are irking by right now because lunar inspiration let's us have more control over Blood Talons, especially in PvP. When we are forced to use PS and pop our BTs we have Moonfire to fall back on to generate CPs without using BTs.

Now, Sabertooth is competing with LI. Sabertooth is critical for feral Rot comp in Arenas. But now we completely ruin our BT interactions.

Also, if we are not getting shapeshifting back off the GCD you NEED to consider letting instant cast spells work in cat form. Remove corruption shouldn't pull me out its so brutal in M+ to despell someone and plumet your DPS. This will also help out with feral utility and be Able to cast rejuv and swiftmend in cat form. Why should feral be punished so hard? Do rogues have to burn 2 GCDs and ruin dps to use their utility?
Having casts pull us out is fine. Not totally needed, but fine.

Lastly, overall utility. Clearly you aren't buffing feral to be better than other specs in ST. Where we are supposed to be great. And we don't nearly compare in AE situation- though you've helped us not be terrible there.
So if we aren't great in ST, then what's left? Utility. We bring brez, but balance covers that better than us because they have Innervate. We bring stampeeding roar, which isn't any throughput so it's not desired. Look at leader of the pack then, leave the healing aspect on the PvP talents, but the crit baseline. There are other options too- symbiosis is mentioned. We need something otherwise why wouldn't a raid bring a rogue or any other melee 10 out of 10 times?

(Rockford) #882
This thread is a little depressing, and shows while there are still huge mechanical issues with the spec, the players that have been giving feedback and wanting Feral to improve, have left for other things. Be it for another spec, or the game completely.

There are a number of improvements on the PTR, which are admittedly more impactful than those for Enh or Shadow, but really, that's not saying much at all.

Rip's CP scaling to time is perfect!

The concept of AoE tier is geat, I just hope the options are tuned appropriately, and not left with a player obligated to juggle Primal Wrath with Savage Roar.

Jagged Wounds removal was needed as it multiplied the snapshotting from other talents.

The removal of Feral's execute is a bitter pill to swallow. While it had conflicted with Sabertooth, I would have liked to have kept the baseline synergy instead.

It's good to see the changes to Sabertooth where Rip is extended per CP spent on FB. Though 4sec per CP spent (max 20sec), is quite significant. How does this compare to the strengths of other talents in the tier?

Bloodtalons still not addressed despite the blue post stating intentions. It either needs to be redesigned or removed completely as it's mechanics are not good for the modern game, where utility is lost on another maintenance buff that is on the GCD alongside the need to coordinate it's application on Rip and Rake. I appreciate that it may be enjoyable for a number of players, it also doesn't feel good for those to disagree with it's playstyle. When this degree of polarisation is behind a talent, we get issues in how it's tuned, how the spec is presented to others, causing a stigma.

I guess it can be improved by simply making it yet another ability (off the GCD) that is procced from PS. Which adds to a bloat where it's just another TF to maintain.

As a spitball idea, you could synergise the interaction into TF, and would very much recommend a similar route from Rogue's Elaborate Planning where CP spenders increase TF's damage bonus by X% for Xsec.

I would like to see this interaction baseline to rectify issues we've had in the past, where talents had defined instead of augmented the principle mechanics behind a spec, which had caused the issues and stigmas from Legion up to now.

(Qaletaqqa) #883
11/12/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Rockford
This thread is a little depressing, and shows while there are still huge mechanical issues with the spec, the players that have been giving feedback and wanting Feral to improve, have left for other things. Be it for another spec, or the game completely.


More or less given up on it, and WoW to be honest. BfA is bad (8.1 looks to improve that a bit, but not enough)

Threw in the towel, this was more less the straw that broke the camel's back.

See you cats on the flipside.