BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Brokenclaws) #844
I don't understand why we still have 2 maintenance buffs to do top damage, we are also one of the last classes with snap shotting.

We have both Savage Roar, and blood talons. One is a duration based CP spender, one is tied to a proc that consumes a heal to give us 2 charges of bonus dmg.

Blood talons, while interesting in theory is not something that makes sense. No other class is getting a bonus from healing a teammate or themselves. This sounds like a paladin or healer ability, not a feral druid ability. Savage roar at least makes sense in an animal sort of way, though most stealth cats wouldn't roar before they started mauling you, nor does any scratch its enemy to let it bleed out.

(Befwelington) #845
10/10/2018 11:49 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
I don't understand why we still have 2 maintenance buffs to do top damage, we are also one of the last classes with snap shotting.

We have both Savage Roar, and blood talons. One is a duration based CP spender, one is tied to a proc that consumes a heal to give us 2 charges of bonus dmg.

Blood talons, while interesting in theory is not something that makes sense. No other class is getting a bonus from healing a teammate or themselves. This sounds like a paladin or healer ability, not a feral druid ability. Savage roar at least makes sense in an animal sort of way, though most stealth cats wouldn't roar before they started mauling you, nor does any scratch its enemy to let it bleed out.


Personally i hope they dont get rid of snapshotting we are the only spec that does it anymore so it gives us something unique and adds an extra layer of gameplay.

regarding using healing for BT. I do agree there could be something better than using healing to proc this. It may not make sense feral cat wise but it makes sense for druid to some degree.

(Brokenclaws) #846
It might make us unique but it also makes low end feral damage look pretty !@#$ty, and high end feral damage look good/above average. It's not something they are very good at balancing around.

Having our dots update dynamically automatically making balancing easier. You want burst on your dots? Hit Tigers fury, bam dps upgrade. Currently? You hit tigers fury to update the dot and either refresh it 100% of the time with Sabertooth, or you have spikes where you have TF rip, and drops when TF is down.

Yes it definitely separates the good ferals from the bads, but it also makes the spec harder to learn.

Energy Management and Bleed refreshes without clipping are solid rotational requirements for the feral spec when combined with boss mechanics.

Currently you are losing tons of damage if you don't snapshot correctly and if you clip your dots. We would not be a 3 button rotation if they removed snapshotting, we would just be easier to balance with a lower margin if mistakes were made.

(Maybeitsroxx) #847
I actually prefer having some type of complexity to the spec however I think BT isn't the answer and there is likely a better alternative. We really need something else to bring the spec in order feral hasn't really changed in several xpacs now.

(Kuli) #848
I know blood talons is a touchy subject among the community, but I'm really trying to look at it from an open mind. I actually like blood talons, and have no problem using it.

The issue with it that I'm finding, is with sabertooth being on tier 1 and most likely the clear winner for single target, what real engagement do we get off it?
We snapshot one super buffed up Rip to start, and refresh it from then on. The only other thing we must snapshot is rakes, but even that becomes jarring because of flesh rending needing to buff our FB.

In M+ its going to become even more jarring with AE rips at low CPs for openers (meaning pre heals every single trash pull, mandatory) and then into our odd ramp up just to get a 100% BT to reapply, etc.

This all just boils back to bliz original point on the talent. It requires some sort of modernisation to it. Another option would be to just scrap it and create a more engaging talent overall

(Maybeitsroxx) #849
I actually prefer having some type of complexity to the spec however I think BT isn't the answer and there is likely a better alternative. We really need something else to bring the spec in order feral hasn't really changed in several xpacs now.

(Martei) #850
10/10/2018 10:44 AMPosted by Befwelington
10/10/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
You wont entangling roots a boss, the design sucks and has sucked for a few xpacs now but yet its always there over complicating the already rushed play style of feral. For pvp it still doesn't feel good to play or use. Not to mention you are using a global cd to heal yourself to do more damage doesn't make sense at all.

The AoE rip talent should help with some of the feral AoE problem although its competing with the wet noodle that brutal slash is. Hopefully we get a solid 100 talent to replace Blood Talons. We are losing Jagged wounds for 8.1 as well I believe. It's going to be very interesting to see what we are supposed to run and hopefully we are compensated for all the damage talents we are losing.


Aoe Rip will defiantly be a nice addition for us and will improve our gameplay and viability if the numbers are good.

Blizzard mentioned in a blue post that hey like what BT is but are looking into how we activate it, but there hasnt been any updates on that so idk.

We are loosing Jagged wounds because we dont really need it anymore. Jagged wounds was made because when dots got affected by haste they excluded bleeds, leaving feral out. Thus JW was made to compensate, however now bleeds are affected by haste in BFA so we dont really needed it. They are increasing our dmg to compensate with things like the mastery change, shred % increase, etc...


However loosing something that makes the bleeds tick much faster is better for faster dying mobs or we will once again end up in the same spot we are in now. Our bleeds will not get the chance to do the damage they can do and since our damage mostly comes from bleeds...

(Befwelington) #851
10/10/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Martei
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Aoe Rip will defiantly be a nice addition for us and will improve our gameplay and viability if the numbers are good.

Blizzard mentioned in a blue post that hey like what BT is but are looking into how we activate it, but there hasnt been any updates on that so idk.

We are loosing Jagged wounds because we dont really need it anymore. Jagged wounds was made because when dots got affected by haste they excluded bleeds, leaving feral out. Thus JW was made to compensate, however now bleeds are affected by haste in BFA so we dont really needed it. They are increasing our dmg to compensate with things like the mastery change, shred % increase, etc...


However loosing something that makes the bleeds tick much faster is better for faster dying mobs or we will once again end up in the same spot we are in now. Our bleeds will not get the chance to do the damage they can do and since our damage mostly comes from bleeds...


Rip is also changing from having CPs to increase damage over a fixed duration to CPs increase the duration over a fixed damage per tick. So you are correct that dots will take more ramp up time then before but atlease we will be able to throw both rip and rake on targets that last for ~10-15 sec without losing dps which is an improvement from before. Anything less then that 10-15 sec and its better to just leave them alone and focus on boss like it is currently (unless you have pred then do a thrash and forget).

Also to note they are changing our mastery to increase finishers. Obviously mastery will be better than it is live, and with the removal of JW haste will drop a bit in priority, crit being left alone. Meaning that our 3 secondary stats sans vers. will be very close to each other which is really nice for us.

(Maybeitsroxx) #852
I am still wondering if the loss of JW is going to hurt as much as I think it is. Also I'm not sure I like the idea of fixed damage rate bleed ticks. We are also losing the execute mechanic feral had from FB. No more 25% Rip refreshes on FB. We are likely still going to get blown out on keys by burst aoe classes like usual.

(Befwelington) #853
10/11/2018 06:18 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
I am still wondering if the loss of JW is going to hurt as much as I think it is. Also I'm not sure I like the idea of fixed damage rate bleed ticks. We are also losing the execute mechanic feral had from FB. No more 25% Rip refreshes on FB. We are likely still going to get blown out on keys by burst aoe classes like usual.


I dont think the loss of JW is going to be that bad. JW is helpful for quick adds but rip being fixed dmg it kinda fixes that where you can just throw on a low CP rip. JW was also good for dotting up multiple adds but now we will also have the AOE Rip and the rip change made above. Also there is %dmg increase to shred along with mastery buff which increase our direct damage thus compensating a bit for JW.

Personally i cant think of a reason for rip being dmg per CP being better than time per CP. It gives us freedom to put rip on targets that only live for a short time like a add spawn. We can then start doing 4 CP rips if needed so that we dont waste potential CP's getting the 5th if shred where to crit.

Losing the execute isnt going to be that bad dmg wise. Our dps doesnt really increase that much during the last 25%, and the other dmg buffs will compensate for this. Playstyle wise it just means we continue our rotation from 100%-0.

We will still get blown out on burst aoe but i think with higher keys where add groups last >15sec we will do really well, and fortified will make it even better. So i dont think we will get kicked out of keys once the stigma is gone and people realize feral is more competitive now.

(Tenshirou) #854
10/11/2018 06:18 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
I am still wondering if the loss of JW is going to hurt as much as I think it is. Also I'm not sure I like the idea of fixed damage rate bleed ticks. We are also losing the execute mechanic feral had from FB. No more 25% Rip refreshes on FB. We are likely still going to get blown out on keys by burst aoe classes like usual.


I am sitting back and waiting to see how bad the bugs are on the PTR this patch before I try again, but last time I tried it, bleeds were... less than optimal, but a large margin.

The reason was pretty simple though and the reason goes back to to the bug comment, testing was showing a strong chance that Rip was not getting the mastery on either the AoE version or single target version. Makes it hard to do decent damage then.

That said, a Saber/SR/BT or MoC build seems to be the best right now for AoE or single and has FB topping your damage by such a large margin as to be stupid. But once again, BUGS!

(Maybeitsroxx) #855
So I'm kinda wondering why they don't just add something like...

When swipe hits 3 or more targets your next finishing move hits all targets within 10 yards. (you can add or subtract damage % to w/e degree you want but the base idea is what im talking about.)

The idea is to let the player decide if the adds are going to live long enough put rip otherwise use ferocious bite. That sounds like a way better option than add a new button to the mix. This makes way more sense than the talent option.

This would solve the feeling of being worthless in M+ outside of strong single target boss damage.

(Martei) #856
All these wont mean much if they don't get the numbers correct though and lets face it they're track record with feral is absolute garbage. People are saying feral's damage is worse on ptr then it is on live. I am assuming they haven't done numbers yet but they have had to do multiple number passes on live and now they are basically starting over again. So be prepared for another month of people forming an opinion of feral and then trying to beat it out by not getting a chance to cause they wont take you cause of the rep that blizz has given feral.

Currently being benched on mythic prog cause feral aoe is crap yey

(Maybeitsroxx) #857
I know that feeling....

(Kuli) #858
They also need to make remove Corruption not pull us out of forms. (soothe doesn't. Neither should our defensive dispell)

(Martei) #859
Seeing power of the moon azerite trait as a top single target feral azerite trait nothing wrong with feral at all.

(Supersylva) #860
I know Bliz is probably done responding to this feral thread. But I do hope they are still reading this. I don't want to feel forced to create a new thread about it.

I really would like the Dev teams thoughts on this: Its been stated that every group should feel glad to bring a class/spec... What exactly is unique to feral? Everything feral offers, our other specs also offer, plus more. The only thing we have is stampeeding roar, but guardian has that too (but we are both in need of love. So I guess two peas in a pod). But seriously, nothing in our talents (like treants for moonkins) give us utility. Nothing base, like vortex, gives us utility. So why feel happy about a feral?

I propose something brought back in the form of leader of the pack. You can either leave it a crit buff like it was. Or maybe just make it a passive speed buff (staying in the theme of feral bringing some group mobility. Its the passive for feral affinity even). There are other options, nature vigil, symbiosis, etc. But somethint very simple and passive could just be leader of the pack at this point.
If you disagree about our utility, I'd love to hear it.

(Lolaan) #861
Looks like most of the bugs regarding Primal Wrath are fixed.

I wanted to say that I think both Scent of Blood and Primal Wrath need some sort of single target increase for a couple reasons. First, Brutal Slash is already a clear single target increase. Second, due to having less rows than most DPS classes, it's extra essential to not lose an entire row in single target (which technically we don't as Brutal Slash is a DPS increase).

To me the most obvious solution to Primal Wrath is to simply have it apply a full duration Rip on the "Primary Target" akin to Eye Beam for Demon Hunters. You're then simply getting a bit of extra damage on each Rip cast. This also solves some of the issues with it overwriting a 20+ second Rip with a shorter one.

---

Also, while I understand the reasoning for the nerf, I really think you should consider alternate ways to remove Thrash from the single target rotation other than a damage nerf. At this point, it only does marginally more damage than a Swipe over it's entire duration. It requires now 4? targets to beat Rake in DPE and feels barely worth using except for the 20% bonus damage to Swipe.

Ideas off the top of my head:
- Require more than one target to generate a CP (it already requires at least one, just make it at least 2 instead). You could then pretty easily increase it to do significantly more damage than shred, without it encroaching on the single target rotation.
- Remove the baseline combo point but let it still be affected by Primal Wrath. Pretty similar to the above but a different tactic. Since our crit rate is not all that great compared to expansions past, the chance of it generating a CP on a single target is petty low, but would become more reliable with more targets. Again would be accompanied by a decent damage increase.
- Have it apply the Rake debuff directly instead of a separate bleed, possibly at a reduced duration (basically, single target version of Primal Wrath). This would be my preferred solution as it gets rid of the god awful tab raking. Increase the Energy cost and/or remove the initial damage to offset it's damage per energy increase.

(Darkarchaon) #862
Did some AOE testing of all 3 talents for 3 targets and i gotta say seems pretty good PW is decent damage and energy efficient. I do wish we could keep the RIP damage from live though, wishful thinking.

Scent of Blood is awesome for giant Packs of adds i believe at 11 targets or so around there it becomes pretty much free and generates oodles of CP.

Brutal slash awesome for that upfront damage and short live adds and cleave, bad thing is for ST fights with barely any adds or adds are wide spread its a wet noodle, perhaps make it so when it hits 1 target its damage is increased for example 20% stronger then shred or w/e that way its a useful button to press on ST?

All in all i really like our AOE talent row. Some number tuning would make it even better esp. for PW(I would like this to do more damage perhaps not nerf RIP?)

One thing i found is that Primal wrath is giving me way too much energy with SOTF like 100+ pretty sure that is a bug.

Tier 15 with saber tooth there feels kinda odd that it competes with Lunar.Reason is personally its boring and it should be baked in since it was part of the play style before hand with execute @ 25%, should bring that back and at 25% FB does 20% more damage. Replacement talent can be anything from when we crit to crit with a certain ability or shred gives 2CP now and a crit would yield 3CP, etc/w/e? or/both increase our max CP to 6 or so? this would be a CP row so to speak.

Tier 75 row i guess this is a energy/damage row of sorts

savage roar i was hoping this ability would've been reworked, baseline or pruned its just old and boring "maintenance buff" feels bad to burn 5CP for this now, was hoping to bake it in with a different purpose maybe a 1 min CD increases damage by X% and X% to allies (maybe). Other ideas can be higher energy regen/damage maybe 15%? longer duration? 0CP (like the old glyph) to start it for openers or resources that wont allow a 5cp SR, so pressing it with 0 feels good because it wont fall off?? or move it to a different row maybe delete renewal and stick it there? atm it still feels slow/unrewarding and by the time i wanna do a FB/Rip finisher i have to refresh SR instead...

Incarnation should replace berserk or berserk gets reworked its a horrible 3min CD, Incarantion actually feels like a DPS CD that does increase damage. Idea maybe lower the CD? reduce the energy rate to compensate for lower CD? add an effect that buffs the raid in a small way X%? versatility X% or damage boost modifier X%?

SOTF i guess tune it up a smidge damage/energy or one of them to enhance a faster/easier play style? make it baseline?

Blood talons maybe a change wouldn't be a bad thing here maybe make it a button on a charge system? button with a 10 second CD maybe or more? longer CD and more damage? i just kinda want a change from the PS/regrowth cycle.

Jagged wounds i felt neutral about this talent, it had a decent function, if only we could have built upon it. Example chance to cause certain abilities to do bleed damage instantaneously? make it a CD to do double damage for bleeds?

this is my take on the current PTR my own personal preference and opinions ^.^

Edit: WTB Leader of the pack back plox

(Jarga) #863
savage roar i was hoping this ability would've been reworked, baseline or pruned its just old and boring "maintenance buff" feels bad to burn 5CP for this now, was hoping to bake it in with a different purpose maybe a 1 min CD increases damage by X% and X% to allies (maybe). Other ideas can be higher energy regen/damage maybe 15%? longer duration? 0CP (like the old glyph) to start it for openers or resources that wont allow a 5cp SR, so pressing it with 0 feels good because it wont fall off?? or move it to a different row maybe delete renewal and stick it there? atm it still feels slow/unrewarding and by the time i wanna do a FB/Rip finisher i have to refresh SR instead...


SR needs to be buried. I hope it gets pruned, or bake it into Tiger's fury (which is the same thing, but shorter buff & no cost). It's clunky and weaving it into a rotation where much of the bleeds expire at the same time only sets it up as a massive wrench in the rotation design for feral dps.