BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Tenshirou) #824
09/28/2018 03:37 PMPosted by Kraineth
Primal Wrath initial hit damage is not affected by mastery, it should be according to the tooltip of mastery. Easy enough change, it was just left off of the mastery spell data.


This could because it is missing the "cat form only" flag. And yes, if you have combo points, you can cast it in caster form.

(Martei) #825
Why do I feel like they will mess it up (probably cause they always do when it comes to feral) I know its early on the ptr but they give us all this damage buffs on live only to nerf our damage so when 8.1 goes live we will be just as bad off as we are now. Like i said i know its early they probably and hopefully aren't done yet.

(Wraithe) #826
Well, we have now been buffed to 10%. The minimum several of us suggested a month ago. Should be 15%, but I don't think we'll see that level of a buff until the 8.1 changes drop, assuming the tuning is done correctly.

Patiently waiting. Although it seems I'm always patiently waiting.

(Kraineth) #827
09/28/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Tenshirou
09/28/2018 03:37 PMPosted by Kraineth
Primal Wrath initial hit damage is not affected by mastery, it should be according to the tooltip of mastery. Easy enough change, it was just left off of the mastery spell data.


This could because it is missing the "cat form only" flag. And yes, if you have combo points, you can cast it in caster form.


Has nothing to do with the cat form flag.

It is missing from the mastery spell data, as well as the spec aura spell data and tiger's fury spell data. They just forgot to add it, the applied rip still gets all benefits.

(Butterbao) #828
So just to be sure: On the PTR, Ferocious Bite no longer refreshes Rip even at execute, unless we take Sabertooth?

(Martei) #829
09/29/2018 01:07 AMPosted by Butterbao
So just to be sure: On the PTR, Ferocious Bite no longer refreshes Rip even at execute, unless we take Sabertooth?


as I understand you are correct. Though i'm very curious why they are doing this change. Taking away the execute is just and odd change I'm curious to the reason behind it. I'm sure there is i just don't know what it is

(Kraineth) #830
09/29/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Martei
09/29/2018 01:07 AMPosted by Butterbao
So just to be sure: On the PTR, Ferocious Bite no longer refreshes Rip even at execute, unless we take Sabertooth?


as I understand you are correct. Though i'm very curious why they are doing this change. Taking away the execute is just and odd change I'm curious to the reason behind it. I'm sure there is i just don't know what it is


They are taking away the execute because Sabertooth did nothing sub 25%

It was a weak execute to begin with, and FB is a complete monster with the buff and now being affected by mastery.

Sabertooth was always poorly designed when we had a baseline execute that did the same thing. They decided to do away with the baseline instead of changing the talent.

(Lolaan) #831
09/27/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Kraineth
09/27/2018 03:07 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
I like the "pouncing cat doing aoe on landing" and like Whiter mentions, since it's already a common ability by cats in WoW, I think it would be a great inspiration for a Feral ability, let's say... Primal Wrath? Also, like previously mentioned, I would much prefer if it applied Rake instead of Rip to prevent overriding a snapshotted Rip with an weaker one considering the setup required. Something closer to this:


You really don't want it to apply rake

[/quote]
So leave Primal Wrath as Rip and have Thrash apply Rake at a 6 or 9 second duration (half doesn't quite work since it's 5 ticks baseine). It would line up better with the new Scent of Blood talent anyhow.

Thrash
40 Energy 8 yd range
Instant
Requires Druid
Requires level 12
Requires Cat Form
Strikes all nearby enemies, dealing (6.7% of Attack power) Bleed damage and applies Rake to all enemies for 6 sec.

Awards 1 combo point.
2 targets you'd still use the normal Rake.

That's still a more "complicated" rotation than most other melee aoe anyhow.

---

They've said many times that Thrash doesn't generally belong in the single target rotation (barring specific instances of talents/azerite/sets etc.). The only way to do that and have it not hit like a complete wet noodle is either to make it mutually exclusive with Rake (like above) or to buff both it AND Shred at the same time (which I don't see them wanting to do).

(Knailo) #832
This is a long post, but hopefully helpful. We spend a lot of time discussing numbers when I think the real problem is not under the spotlight: spec design versus content design.

TLDR: Isn’t it time to “reinvent” Ferals?

Allow me to explain why I believe so.

BfA is the fourth expansion I play in which I start with the druid and drop it to something else. Happened in WotLK, Cata, Legion and BfA.

Feral has been the same for as long as I can remember. Ok now, bad then, terrible further, then ok again, and it goes. Hardly if ever one of the top damage dealers, mostly because when the spec was good you have the “skill requirement” to tone down overall. Add PvP and there was another whole set of too much too little.

The “fantasy” that feral druids: “Takes on the form of a great cat to deal damage with bleeds and bites” is great, but coming back to Legion after almost 6 years my IceHUD profile was about spot on. Close to NOTHING had changed in the rotation until 7.3.5.

One problem I see with the spec currently is that it was designed for content that doesn’t exist anymore. We don’t fight Patchwerk bosses anymore, we fight bosses which have down time and mobility. Add Mythic+ to the equation and Feral is out of place.

DOTs in general are specs that require ramp up. Rogues were in a not so different spot a while ago due to ramp up, 27% boost anyone? But now they are great thanks to that buff and burst. Ramp up specs worked well years ago with the style of fights but now it is simply not working.

Keeping all of our time based DOTs or buffs up while considering when to cast them (BT) is not for the faint of heart and even if done properly the numbers are not good.

If our abilities were to be boosted enough to account for the down time and ramp up caused by mechanics on recent fights they would probably be too strong in situations where those mechanics would not keep you away from the target.

Given the combination and over a decade of fiddling with our abilities without success, it looks like that spec is impossible to balance. Only moment when it works is at the end of expansions where there is a defined ceiling of gear and thus numbers can be tuned specifically for that moment. For most of rest of the expansion it will be bad.

Giving 5% more here, 3% less there and adjustments of sort will not fix the spec. It is ill suited for the content released lately from a design perspective.

With all of that in mind I wonder: isn’t it time to “reinvent” Feral?

Perhaps a new approach to suit the current content better would help solve most of the issues. Just start from scratch. Looking at other melee classes, they seem to share the same design goals which probably allow for a more linear scaling and easier testing.

My grudges with the current design:
- Tiger’s Fury: Unnecessary. Just improve energy regeneration and make the abilities cost less or do more damage.
- Savage Roar: same as Tiger’s Fury.
- AoE: other melee classes have one or two AoE abilities, with one of them usually talented. Hint? Follow that idea. Swipe, Thrash, Brutal Slash, Primal Wrath: several abilities that won’t do what a single one from other classes does.
- Moonfire: that is bird stuff, we don’t do chicken. Next we will howl to the moon for improved Moonfire damage. If you want that kind of thing just bring Faerie Fire back. Note: please don’t.
- Blood Talons: This is a PvP talent. There is no point in having a self targeting macro just so you add complexity to an already complex rotation.
Weak abilities: there is no burst, none. To kill a normal world mob: Rake (prowl) + Shred + Shred + TF + Shred + FB +Feral Frenzy + FB: is dead. Seriously?

And finally...
- Berserk: Probably the worst cool down in the game right now. With our abilities doing so little damage per cast, this is proof that the spec has patched so much that it lost its identity.

How would I look at it?
- Steer away from DOTs and more towards debuffs or buffs
- Have meaningful 2 or 1.5 mins CD
- Feral Frenzy should be a wide cone in front of the cat, not single target
- One descent AoE ability so if you don’t AoE spec you’re not helpless
- Able to burst in single and AoE. Take the “weak abilities” scenario above: Rake (prowl) + Shred + Shred + FB + something silly to finish off should be enough. No TF or SR or FF required
- And the day of St. Never when we can shift without loosing yet another GCD

As hopeful I’m for 8.1, I don’t see it to be the patch that will bring the spec back to mainstream. It just seems to continue to add more to the already gigantic ball of patches around the spec just because of an identity it doesn’t have anymore. All Feral is known for now is being bad.

(Handicap) #833
People play feral? I've yet to see one live anywhere

(Cluey) #834
09/30/2018 07:11 PMPosted by Knailo
How would I look at it?
- Steer away from DOTs and more towards debuffs or buffs
- Have meaningful 2 or 1.5 mins CD
- Feral Frenzy should be a wide cone in front of the cat, not single target
- One descent AoE ability so if you don’t AoE spec you’re not helpless
- Able to burst in single and AoE. Take the “weak abilities” scenario above: Rake (prowl) + Shred + Shred + FB + something silly to finish off should be enough. No TF or SR or FF required
- And the day of St. Never when we can shift without loosing yet another GCD

So you want them to make Feral simple and boring?

I quite like how it is now, with a few exceptions.

    There's nothing wrong with being a DoT based class, no idea what sort of "debuffs or buffs" you're thinking of, either way they'd have durations and then people will just complain that they're just maintenance de/buffs.

    Just above this paragraph you said to remove Tiger's Fury which is a short duration damage buff, then you want Berserk reduced to a 90-120s CD. That sounds a bit contradictory to me.
    The only problem with the 3m CD is when it syncs up poorly for fights, like it did on Kin'garoth.

    I don't mind the proposed AoE talent options, we'll have to see how they play though. There is a chance they will change as that's the nature of an iteration process. I agree that Feral Frenzy should be an AoE, not sure on a cone or just like Thrash is now. **

    Kill time will change as you get better gear, after ~116 it became slow and tedious but that was before the tweaks and after legendaries stopped working. Now I'm not having the same level of tedium and can kill a few things at a time without using all of my CD.

    As for your "burst" request, well that might change if they rebalance our damage sources, it was noted that our auto attacks contribute so much because of a multiplier. If that is removed, even scaled back, the damage on our abilities will need to be increased to keep us relevant. This would allow for energy dumping to be a burst of damage.


I agree the GCD on shifting is horrible, it's felt bad since it was implemented and I'm not really sure why it was changed, I assume it was a PvP thing. The fluidity of playing feral is interrupted each time you've got to shift, it was not a positive change.

I'd like to see the Omen of Clarity mechanic looked at. Currently it's very streaky, it's not unusual to have it refresh while you're on GCD or when you're not in a position to use the free attack - unless you just eat a combo point. Removing the last of the haste multiplier will ease this but it will still happen while you're lining buffs up for Rip, it's even worse if you're using Bloodtalons as you can't waste the combo point!

Having played my rogue a bit I think a mechanic like Outlaw has with Opportunity would be better, a blatant copy of the trigger mechanic would work but that doesn't seem to be something the class team likes doing.
For those of you who don't know, Opportunity is triggered by Sinister Strike, their main combo builder. It's a 35% chance, so once you have the buff you spend it before pressing Sinister Strike again. You can press it again but there's a chance you'll waste a proc.

This means we'd gain some control over OoC, letting us plan more. Sometimes you'd have to use it, or cap energy, other times you'd be able to make choices knowing that you wouldn't waste the chance of another proc.

** I've always pictured Feral Frenzy being that cloud, with limbs and stars popping out of it, in old Looney Tunes cartoons. Here's a similar example.
https://tenor.com/view/fight-cartoon-animated-scuffle-gif-7221267
If you've ever seen cats fight you know how fast they move, you've probably heard the scream too. I definitely don't want that noise used for the ability!

(Gryff) #835
I am here to just check in I guess. I was a long time Feral Druid. In BFA I just couldn't stand being at the bottom of the DPS meter any longer so I swapped over to this DK. We didn't have another one in our raid.

Anyway at lower item level to my Druid I was doing more DPS in raid. At the same ilvl as my Druid I was doing 1.5k or more DPS. Now at my item level I am destroying what my Feral Druid was able to do in guild heroic raiding.

Not sure Blizzard can do anything to make me want to return to playing Feral but I really hope they do. My original plan was to be a Kul'Tiran Druid. I mean sure we are getting the Allied Race far later then I expected but I already leveled the Alt to race change. Heritage Armor can wait. I just want to actually want to play it.

Not sure that is going to happen.

(Tusk) #836
It seems they are doing some very strange live fixes right now. I play feral Druid pvp daily and have noticed a few things.

1. Raking ferocity supposedly got a nerf, which I can def tell DID happen. Stacking 3 RF traits I def do not bite as hard as I used too.

BUT

Stacking 1 trait on a 340 piece and then 2 wild flesh. I’m critting 11-13k on my shred and 38-41k on my ferocious bite. My arena damage has increased A LOT running it like this.

2. Tiger fury is extremely broken. As part of my rotation, and reset with skull bash on caster/healer. I find it very very useless....I’ve done a lot of testing in pvp with it, I do substantially more damage when I do not pop tiger fury or even bezerker...why? It doesn’t make any sense...

3. Incarnation, doesn’t work? Shred rake supposed to work as if stealth...I hit far far less while this is active. EXCEPT if I stack x3 310-340 wild flesh pieces. If I stack any higher than that it starts to diminish on the damage...and the weird part is. I’ve tested this versus 285 ilvl opponents and 370...and it hits harder on there end vs the lower ilvl toon. Odd... considering the hype with people running around lower ilvl too hit harder and not get hit as hard.

It’s jist odd the way I am needing too stack certain combos of pieces to actually do anything...one would think stacking x3 355+ raking ferocity would do more damage than stacking x1 340 and 2 other traits. But as a feral Druid recently I’m finding myself dominating the damage in arenas, and controlling the battle field. More than my rogue partners. So I feel like feral is not in a SUPER bad place right now...yes the complexity of the rotation is def up there., but don’t want a cookie cutter 2 button rotation. That’s just not fun...actually takes some skill too play feral let’s keep it that way. Def needs some tuning for sure...lots of bugs needing too be worked out. But hopefully I didn’t ramble too much! Lol cheers all:)

(Maybeitsroxx) #837
Can we get rid of blood talons for something else using a heal to do more damage makes no sense. I would be happy for a 1 min cd aoe or something.

(Tusk) #838
10/10/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
Can we get rid of blood talons for something else using a heal to do more damage makes no sense. I would be happy for a 1 min cd aoe or something.


I use roots, and get the damage reduction on melee classes! Works well

(Maybeitsroxx) #839
You wont entangling roots a boss, the design sucks and has sucked for a few xpacs now but yet its always there over complicating the already rushed play style of feral. For pvp it still doesn't feel good to play or use. Not to mention you are using a global cd to heal yourself to do more damage doesn't make sense at all.

The AoE rip talent should help with some of the feral AoE problem although its competing with the wet noodle that brutal slash is. Hopefully we get a solid 100 talent to replace Blood Talons. We are losing Jagged wounds for 8.1 as well I believe. It's going to be very interesting to see what we are supposed to run and hopefully we are compensated for all the damage talents we are losing.

(Befwelington) #840
10/10/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
You wont entangling roots a boss, the design sucks and has sucked for a few xpacs now but yet its always there over complicating the already rushed play style of feral. For pvp it still doesn't feel good to play or use. Not to mention you are using a global cd to heal yourself to do more damage doesn't make sense at all.

The AoE rip talent should help with some of the feral AoE problem although its competing with the wet noodle that brutal slash is. Hopefully we get a solid 100 talent to replace Blood Talons. We are losing Jagged wounds for 8.1 as well I believe. It's going to be very interesting to see what we are supposed to run and hopefully we are compensated for all the damage talents we are losing.


Aoe Rip will defiantly be a nice addition for us and will improve our gameplay and viability if the numbers are good.

Blizzard mentioned in a blue post that hey like what BT is but are looking into how we activate it, but there hasnt been any updates on that so idk.

We are loosing Jagged wounds because we dont really need it anymore. Jagged wounds was made because when dots got affected by haste they excluded bleeds, leaving feral out. Thus JW was made to compensate, however now bleeds are affected by haste in BFA so we dont really needed it. They are increasing our dmg to compensate with things like the mastery change, shred % increase, etc...

(Tusk) #841
10/10/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
You wont entangling roots a boss, the design sucks and has sucked for a few xpacs now but yet its always there over complicating the already rushed play style of feral. For pvp it still doesn't feel good to play or use. Not to mention you are using a global cd to heal yourself to do more damage doesn't make sense at all.

The AoE rip talent should help with some of the feral AoE problem although its competing with the wet noodle that brutal slash is. Hopefully we get a solid 100 talent to replace Blood Talons. We are losing Jagged wounds for 8.1 as well I believe. It's going to be very interesting to see what we are supposed to run and hopefully we are compensated for all the damage talents we are losing.


Yea I don’t PVE whatsoever so ... can’t help ya there. I wouldn’t run blood talons in pve any way

(Maybeitsroxx) #842
I'm not sure what the answer is for BT but I hate it. Maximizing it isn't hard just tedious. Hopefully they find a good way to activate it where you can actually chose where the 2 stacks go to.

(Befwelington) #843
Currently you get to choose where they go. The goal is to have 1 stack go to a rip/bite and the other to rake. With the removal of JW bleeds will last longer. So with that its possible to do 1 stack to rip/bite and 1 to either Shred/Thrash/Swipe if your current rake is already affected by BT and will not be in pandemic range until your next use of bite/rip.

I have switched from JW to SoTF so i can start to get used how long the bleeds last (also SoTF sims a slight bit higher for my character with my gear). The results i have found is that there are times I get to choose to spend 1 stack of BT not on rake but on something else because i still have like 10 seconds on rake dot that was previously buffed by BT