BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Whiter) #804
Feral needs some burst AoE. There are lot's of encounters in game where we need to deal with bunch of small adds. They got low HP but they need to be dealt with fast. Other classes like DH or War got abbilities that let them do a strong burst AoE while Feral have to target enemies one by one.
Looking at changes in 8.1, i see that nothing changes for such type of encounter and feral will still be in huge disadvantage.

At the same time nearly all cat-ish enemies use "Pounce":
Court of Stars - manapard jumps, does strong aoe and dots in radius.
Darkheart thicket - cat jumps, does strong aoe.
Island Expeditions - cat jumps, strongly aoe and dots in radius.
OpenWorld - cats jump, strongly aoe.
etc. etc.

So what i'm leading to - restore the proper way of things and give Ferals something like that.

For example:
Return Pounce as the base ability.
With a similar like other classes cd (DX, War) - 30/45/60 sec.
Strongly AoE at the landing 10m and dots in radius on 5-8 sec. Gives the disorient 2 sec.

sorry for english.

(Brún) #805
You would still use BrS on a fight like Zekvoz. The difference is that now you don’t have to sacrifice your single target damage and can still be useful for the remainder of the fight outside of the add windows.

(Melwen) #806
09/25/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Sunoco
Remove Corruption, our defensive despell, is still pulling us out of cat form in 8.1
This makes 0 sense seeing as Soothe, our offensive despell, does NOT pull us out of cat form.

It does not function this way for boomkins and it should not function this way for cat form (I am not positive of bear for)
Ah............someone finally see this issue. Though sadly this is not entirely a new issue.

Back when Claws of Shirvallah is a fun talent, tons of feral players disregard the talent's viability because 'numbers'. But they are oblivious to the huge QoL improvement that it granted ferals, apart from the outrageously gorgeous cosmetic man-cat appearance.

Yes, being able to cast Regrowth, Healing Touch and Cyclone while remain in cat form can be arguably considered 'overpowered'. But how does being able to use Remove Corruption, Soothe or even Hibernate while in cat form 'overpowered' in any shape or form?

'Because we are druids, so it's important to maintain that shapeshift feel'?

How about we remove Predatory Swiftness and just have them hard cast Regrowth with Bloodtalons then?

They already been doing that for every opening move since Bloodtalons is a thing, so it 'should not' be a problem, right? Afterall, they want to shapeshift, right?

09/25/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Sunoco
I will prob make a separate post about this because it may get lost in the overall discussion of feral but please don't ignore this... Or at least explain why a defensive despell should pull us out of cat while an offensive one shouldn't.
And please feel free to also explain why Feral Druids are so skimped on their stealth kit.

It took 'forever' to lower the Prowl cooldown from 10 sec to 6 sec. And yet that feels abysmal for Feral druid, where stealth and opening are a big part of our gameplay.

Why Prowl can't be 2 sec cooldown for Feral Druids only?
Why can't Feral Druids have a vanish-like ability to manipulate stealth?
We're 'suppose' to 'bear up' when things go sour? Then why put all the bear defensives on affinities, which in turn makes bear form for cat nothing more than a sponge with zero abilities?

(Fairyland) #807
09/25/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Sunoco
It makes despelling defensively feel horrendous. In my M+ if I am with a balance druid I flat out ask if they can be the lead on despells since I lose a lot of DPS and fluidity if I were to do it (I obviously still do it if multiple people get cursed/poisoned or if theirs is on CD)... But I shouldn't have to avoid my utility purely because someone else does it better.
Try being a warlock in a world where interrupt is near mandatory in M+.

Still being the only class in the game with zero baseline interrupt. Still need to 'use a specific pet' to have interrupt, which now enjoying the double jeopardy of having the survival rate of a wet sponge plus AI pathing issues.

Let's not forget that 'swap pet' is not even a choice for a specific spec - which, hey, no one is even playing it because they messed it up so bad!

The irony is there's still lots of vocal voices that insist this animosity is 'fine', because 'not every class has to be the same'.

Yeah, not every class has to be the same. So it is ok that everyone else is doing interrupt duty way better than warlocks. /s

(Liftie) #808
08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
  • Bloodtalons
  • Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we're not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you're required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn't great).


    Any news on when a change to BT will be coming? Afaik, it's not on the PTR, and it feels like something that should be coming with 8.1.

    (Ravensong) #809
    09/27/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Liftie
    Any news on when a change to BT will be coming? Afaik, it's not on the PTR, and it feels like something that should be coming with 8.1.


    To be fair, the PTR is not on the PTR yet. :p

    I expect that this is an incomplete build for Ferals. I think there will be more changes, though not many, but likely at least a few more to come. I think they are still figuring out how to make Bloodtalons both less of a hassle to use, while keeping it's interesting mechanical interactions.

    And then of course will come the tuning. They cannot really do much about the numbers until they have a solid mechanical bass to start from.

    This was the first week, and it was not even playable. Expect it to take a few weeks at least to get everything in place. Just make sure you try it out (when it finally becomes playable) and give lots of constructive feedback.

    (Etalla) #810
    09/27/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Ravensong
    To be fair, the PTR is not on the PTR yet. :pI expect that this is an incomplete build for Ferals. I think there will be more changes, though not many, but likely at least a few more to come. I think they are still figuring out how to make Bloodtalons both less of a hassle to use, while keeping it's interesting mechanical interactions.And then of course will come the tuning. They cannot really do much about the numbers until they have a solid mechanical bass to start from. This was the first week, and it was not even playable. Expect it to take a few weeks at least to get everything in place. Just make sure you try it out (when it finally becomes playable) and give lots of constructive feedback.
    So - I understand where you are coming from here - I really do. However, to be 'fair', every single time I read anything on the order of "don't worry more changes are coming and they'll fix it" makes me puke a little in my mouth. Have you been around for the last 6 years? Have you participated in the Alpha's, Beta's, and PTR's? Cause if you have - you'd clearly have ZERO CONFIDENCE in anything the developers touch - not even making coffee in their break room!

    I'm not saying you are full on defending them and I'm not even saying the sky is falling. However, they say that ferals have a single target niche and then continue to design a game full of 5 man content (m+'s) and raids where all but 2 bosses are single target'ish meanwhile ferals burst aoe is so bad it flat out exludes us from 95% of the games end content.

    Enough of the "trusting" the developers. They didn't even try to balance. All they had to do was run a script infront of AoE dummies during Alpha and/or Beta to realize there were HUGE GLARING OBVIOUS problems like "our AoE abilities being so bad it wasn't even worth using". This shouldn't have taken 1 month into release for them to see this. The fact that they are bearing down on NOT fixing our AoE burst but rather giving us yet another finisher (5 now) that applies a rip to targets that won't even last 15 seconds is a clear indication on where their heads are on this. Every other single melee class in the game at this point has a 1 button I just did something that allows me to do instant AoE burst damage - and they aren't tied to combo points or finishers to boot.

    BTW - feral will now have more finishers than the entirety of the Pali's rotation.

    (Felclaws) #811
    my 2 cents....

    GIVE SHIFTING ITS OWN GCD separate from other abilities esp. wild charge, a druid shifting should NOT be penalized

    make guardian and feral one spec again, talents can be made to suit for more damage or damage reduction or healing per the druid but that was feral's utility in the day and believe it or not kids, feral may have been below par numbers wise in vanilla/BC but it was a BLAST to play. Tiger's fury was basically your blood talons and there was no garbage savage roar or mediocre berserk.

    "Do damage>make target bleed>damage does MOAR damage>shift to bear/charge>take less damage"

    You can argue rose tint all you want, I genuinely feel bad for people who like feral now but never got to play it in its most enjoyable iteration. Wrath was close, but savage roar was beginning of the end of that era in my opinion.

    (Ancihcaor) #812
    I like the "pouncing cat doing aoe on landing" and like Whiter mentions, since it's already a common ability by cats in WoW, I think it would be a great inspiration for a Feral ability, let's say... Primal Wrath? Also, like previously mentioned, I would much prefer if it applied Rake instead of Rip to prevent overriding a snapshotted Rip with an weaker one considering the setup required. Something closer to this:

    Primal Wrath
    20 Energy / 1 to 5 Combo Points
    13 yd range
    10 sec cooldown

    1 point : [(10% of Attack power) * 2] plus Rake for 3 sec
    2 points: [(10% of Attack power) * 3] plus Rake for 6 sec
    3 points: [(10% of Attack power) * 4] plus Rake for 9 sec
    4 points: [(10% of Attack power) * 5] plus Rake for 12 sec
    5 points: [(10% of Attack power) * 6] plus Rake for 15 sec

    Finishing move that leap to the target, deals instant damage and applies Rake to all enemies within 10 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.

    Redistributed the damage to be a bit more front-loaded with a slightly higher bleed duration, added a small range leap (same range as Skull Bash) and a 10 sec cooldown to prevent abusing the mobility part of it. The little extra mobility helps a bit to lessen two of the worst Feral weaknesses: target switching ramp up time and AoE.
    Then buff Swipe and Brutal Slash by 20%, Thrash by 10% and I believe we have a functional AoE toolkit.

    (Etalla) #813
    09/27/2018 03:07 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
    Finishing move that leap to the target, deals instant damage and applies Rake to all enemies within 10 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.
    That is exactly what they are doing (minus the pounce?) - have you not read the 7.1 changes? Meanwhile - we will now have more finishers than all of the Pali's single and AoE target rotation. All other melee classes, and many range classes now, have abilities that either auto cleave -or- have an ability on a short cd that turns all of their other abilities into auto cleave and they are NOT tied to a finisher.

    Think about that for a second. If we had a short cd that reduced the damage of our abilities by some percent aka warriors, rogues, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, but made all of our abilities cleave - then WE would be empowered to decide if these adds live long enough for an AoE rip to be applied or die to quickly and there for spend our finisher on an AoE FB. Meanwhile, our rake would apply rake to all and our shred would hit all things. At this point swipe and thrash become obsolete.

    (Martei) #814
    You know I'm not even sure why we have to come out of form to cast anything. I remember when druids couldn't even use health pots but could tank. You couldn't health pot when your health was low for an emergency cause it would take you out of form.

    I mean these abilities have cast times are capable of being interrupted so it seems odd to me that we have to come out of form. you have abilities you cant use them unless you do this though. Other then stealth I'm not sure theres any other restrictions like this on any class.

    In order cast frost spells as a mage you must first have frost shield up...

    (Ancihcaor) #815
    09/27/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Etalla
    09/27/2018 03:07 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
    Finishing move that leap to the target, deals instant damage and applies Rake to all enemies within 10 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.
    That is exactly what they are doing (minus the pounce?) - have you not read the 7.1 changes? Meanwhile - we will now have more finishers than all of the Pali's single and AoE target rotation. All other melee classes, and many range classes now, have abilities that either auto cleave -or- have an ability on a short cd that turns all of their other abilities into auto cleave and they are NOT tied to a finisher.

    Think about that for a second. If we had a short cd that reduced the damage of our abilities by some percent aka warriors, rogues, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, but made all of our abilities cleave - then WE would be empowered to decide if these adds live long enough for an AoE rip to be applied or die to quickly and there for spend our finisher on an AoE FB. Meanwhile, our rake would apply rake to all and our shred would hit all things. At this point swipe and thrash become obsolete.


    I know they are (8.1 change). What I was suggesting is a more feral themed version, more front-loaded, short range charge, and applying Rake instead of Rip... maybe you didn't read my whole post or maybe you did but just as I was in the middle of editing it?

    (Kraineth) #816
    09/27/2018 03:07 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
    I like the "pouncing cat doing aoe on landing" and like Whiter mentions, since it's already a common ability by cats in WoW, I think it would be a great inspiration for a Feral ability, let's say... Primal Wrath? Also, like previously mentioned, I would much prefer if it applied Rake instead of Rip to prevent overriding a snapshotted Rip with an weaker one considering the setup required. Something closer to this:

    [/quote]

    You really don't want it to apply rake

    Putting rake on multiple targets is part of the aoe play style until you get up to 8 or more targets when you can start using swipe.

    8.1 Feral currently is only missing 3 things to make it a spec that people would consider taking it for M+ and high end raiding:

    • Finish the process of removing our haste bonus and our auto attack damage bonus and compensating our baseline damage of abilities to compensate. Auto attack damage is out of whack, and our baseline spells are hurting because of it. Last night on my Mythic Vectis kill my top damage on the adds was auto attack, despite me dumping a ton of finishers and pooled energy into them. I want to be rewarded with good damage on targets when I properly prepare for them, and having auto attack be 15-20% of my damage breakdown hurts this. Not to mention that every time the spec sees aura buffs, that buff doesn't affect autos. Which helped turn our recent "5% buff" into about 3% in reality.
    • Remove Corruption castable in bear/cat form. Seriously, we can soothe in cat form, allow Guardian and Feral access to their spells during combat. This is particularly painful for guardian druids when monk tanks can use their dispel and bears cannot.
    • A unique utility. I would suggest this in the form of a much more powerful Stampeding roar. Same speed, 30 yard AoE, 45 second cooldown. Make it a talent on the movement row for feral and maybe Guardian only that replaces our baseline dash. We give up some personal mobility, and we are able to be a reliable tool to help the raid deal with movement-based mechanics.

    (Melwen) #817
    09/27/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Kraineth
    Remove Corruption castable in bear/cat form. Seriously, we can soothe in cat form, allow Guardian and Feral access to their spells during combat. This is particularly painful for guardian druids when monk tanks can use their dispel and bears cannot.
    I mean, it's kind of confusing when they decide to bring more utility back into the game, but they didn't update/remove their archaic limitations.

    Then again, i stopped trying to apply common sense/typical logic to their changes long ago. Stuff like Feral Druids still doesn't have a vanish, or that 2 sec cast time being added to Rebirth just defies any logical explanation, especially when they claim they use 'fun' as a metric.

    Unless they define 'fun' very differently from the generic perception.

    09/27/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Kraineth
    A unique utility. I would suggest this in the form of a much more powerful Stampeding roar. Same speed, 30 yard AoE, 45 second cooldown. Make it a talent on the movement row for feral and maybe Guardian only that replaces our baseline dash. We give up some personal mobility, and we are able to be a reliable tool to help the raid deal with movement-based mechanics.
    Agree on a more powerful Stampeding roar, but i think it should just be upgraded baseline.

    The problem of being a talent, is we end up heading back into Legion-era problem. There was, in a literal sense, no choice on that 'mobility' row. You simply take either Displacer Beast or Guttural Roars. Even Wild Charge was forced to take a back seat given how those 2 talents really rocked the scene, while Renewal is still..............well, Renewal.

    Ya know what, let's just do what was supposed to be done a long time ago.

    Scrap Row 30's 'mobility' theme, and give us another throughput talent row.

    Give us Wild Charge baseline. Ditch Renewal. Or give us both. Whichever way works.

    LETS GO WILD ON WHAT THIS NEW ROW OF DPS TALENTS CAN DO

    (Jasher) #818
    Honestly,

    I'm really depressed not being able to play Feral competitively. I don't even have the desire to play the game anymore.

    (Sarafina) #819
    Does anyone pvp here? Lol I jumped on my feral last night and it felt awesome! I feel not as squishy, my damage was really high and still Crit for 35-40k...I thought they nerfed raking ferocity...

    Even with clarity build still getting 10k shreds into a 25k FB... they secretly buff? Lol pve I’m sure might suck but pvp actually feels really good

    (Perciva) #820
    Just a small suggestion but can we adjust the sound effects of feral's abilities?

    All I hear is ear-bleeding SHHHHK SHSSSSSHK SHHHHTTTK and I know feral is based around bleeds but can we come up with something that doesn't sound like someone is tearing sheets of paper inside my skull?

    I play with volume off on this character for this reason.

    (Jasher) #821
    09/28/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Perciva
    Just a small suggestion but can we adjust the sound effects of feral's abilities?

    All I hear is ear-bleeding SHHHHK SHSSSSSHK SHHHHTTTK and I know feral is based around bleeds but can we come up with something that doesn't sound like someone is tearing sheets of paper inside my skull?

    I play with volume off on this character for this reason.


    You can turn down sound effects only. So you can have the other sounds on.

    (Kaelron) #822
    09/28/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Perciva
    Just a small suggestion but can we adjust the sound effects of feral's abilities?

    All I hear is ear-bleeding SHHHHK SHSSSSSHK SHHHHTTTK and I know feral is based around bleeds but can we come up with something that doesn't sound like someone is tearing sheets of paper inside my skull?

    I play with volume off on this character for this reason.


    I posted about this very same issue earlier in the thread. I do believe Feral needs a sound design pass, as a lot of its spells have either very similar ripping paper sound effects as your describe, while others feel underwhelming and un-impactful with their current sound effects. It's not a gameplay issue, but it'd do wonders for the overall "feel" of the spec if they gave its over all soundscape another look.

    (Kraineth) #823
    Couple feedback notes from testing now that PTR is up.

    • Primal Wrath initial hit damage is not affected by mastery, it should be according to the tooltip of mastery. Easy enough change, it was just left off of the mastery spell data.
    • Scent of Blood is capped at 10 targets, 10 targets is a pretty high cap, but maybe put that in the tooltip so that we know it cannot make swipe truly free.
    • Our 25% haste bonus is gone, but has not been compensated for as far as I can tell. Shred and FB saw some buffs, but those were offset by a massive 20% nerf to Rip
    • Primal Wrath spell animation is a bit lackluster, I would recommend using the same spell effect from thrash to amp it up a bit since it is supposed to be a powerful ability.
    • Auto attack damage bonus for Feral is still in, and is still sapping a lot of damage from our abilities. Most importantly it is cutting down on the potential for us to pool resources for priority targets in encounters since our abilities get overshadowed by just right clicking the target.