BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Ancihcaor) #764
09/22/2018 03:48 PMPosted by Ravensong
I disagree with the idea of it being a separate bleed effect. If it was separate we would actually be required to use both on a single target. It would end up more like Thrash Vs Rake in that way. (Which is why I have long thought Thrash should just apply Rake to multiple targets rather than being a separate dot which drives us to use it single target if it is even a minor increase to damage Vs energy cost)


It could instead spread the current Rip that is on your target then? Not sure if that would be more drawbacks than benefits honestly.

(Lolaan) #765
Or could potentially make it apply full duration on the "primary target" and half on everything else. At that point it essentially replaces Rip (because it has up front damage).

(Rockford) #766
Basically want something to preserve the integrity of the main targets Rip, without the introduction of another bleed.

Spreading the targets current bleed can be a way around this, in a way that doesn't interfere with any previous setting up of snapshots to that target.

Implementing yet another bleed opens the door to having this in ST, which is not at all intended.

Fantastic to hear our requests of Rip scaling with time per CP instead of strength. This opens up or multi dotting where we are able to Rake>Rip several targets in rapid succession.

While this will work in the same way as Sin Rogue, the functionality beats out any homogenisation. And would suggest keeping this in mind for further design.

(Snuffly) #767
Predator is still a talent. It just shifted positions in the tier 1 row.

(Lolaan) #768
09/22/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Rockford
Basically want something to preserve the integrity of the main targets Rip, without the introduction of another bleed.

Spreading the targets current bleed can be a way around this, in a way that doesn't interfere with any previous setting up of snapshots to that target.

Implementing yet another bleed opens the door to having this in ST, which is not at all intended.

Fantastic to hear our requests of Rip scaling with time per CP instead of strength. This opens up or multi dotting where we are able to Rake>Rip several targets in rapid succession.

While this will work in the same way as Sin Rogue, the functionality beats out any homogenisation. And would suggest keeping this in mind for further design.


Having it "spread" a rip would be a pain in the !@# in most content and would greatly diminish the flexibility of this talent. The only thing it would be better for is cleave in a boss fight, something where you already have a Rip up. I'd much rather have it overwrite a good Rip than function that way.

Honestly, I think people are a little overly concerned about it.

At "worst" it will overwrite a full duration Rip with TF + BT with a baseline PW Rip chewing up some of the damage and duration, but if it's worthwhile to cast PW, then there's probably enough targets that will last long enough to be worth losing the main Rip snapshot (or you would have just spec'd BrS).

EDIT: I also don't think it would be that big a deal to have it in the single target rotation. We only have 4 DPS rows, one of which is now the AE focused row. Personally I think all 3 talents in the AE row should have some sort of single target benefit.

Rip is 12.5% per tick (150% at 5 CPs with 0 haste) for 20 energy
Ferocious Bite is (after armor) ~70% AP for 25 energy
PW is 30% + 12.5% per tick (30% + 75% = 105% at 5 CPs with 0 haste) for 20 energy, so while better, it's not hugely better on single target. At higher haste there's potential for it to be strong very, but same can be said about BrS.

Crimson Tempest, which this is basically a copy of, is a separate DoT (though it's DoT is less damage per tick than Rupture)

(Ancihcaor) #769
09/22/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Rockford
Fantastic to hear our requests of Rip scaling with time per CP instead of strength. This opens up or multi dotting where we are able to Rake>Rip several targets in rapid succession.


It's definitely the change that I am most looking forward to try.

09/22/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Rockford
Spreading the targets current bleed can be a way around this, in a way that doesn't interfere with any previous setting up of snapshots to that target.


Yes but then it would require so much more setup/ramp up time; It's a bleed finisher, requiring another buffed bleed finisher... for aoe? nah, no ty. If it has to spread an existing bleed to avoid interfering with the current snapshotted one, then I would strongly prefer that it spreads Rake, not Rip.

(Ancihcaor) #770
09/22/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Rockford
Fantastic to hear our requests of Rip scaling with time per CP instead of strength. This opens up or multi dotting where we are able to Rake>Rip several targets in rapid succession.


It's definitely the change that I am most looking forward to try.

09/22/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Rockford
Spreading the targets current bleed can be a way around this, in a way that doesn't interfere with any previous setting up of snapshots to that target.


Yes but then it would require so much more setup/ramp up time; It's a bleed finisher, requiring another buffed bleed finisher... for aoe? nah, no ty. If it has to spread an existing bleed to avoid interfering with the current snapshotted one, then I would strongly prefer that it spreads Rake, not Rip.

(Martei) #771
09/22/2018 06:38 PMPosted by Snuffly
Predator is still a talent. It just shifted positions in the tier 1 row.


yeah I keep seeing people say its gone its not its still on the same tier as well though the talent that's gone is bloodscent the extra crit on bleeding targets talent

also it is odd what talent do you choose on that row for single target i don't feel like its that big of an issue but you loose a whole talent row on a single target fight. though single target fights really don't exist anymore

(Ghrell) #772
09/22/2018 10:58 PMPosted by Martei
09/22/2018 06:38 PMPosted by Snuffly
Predator is still a talent. It just shifted positions in the tier 1 row.


yeah I keep seeing people say its gone its not its still on the same tier as well though the talent that's gone is bloodscent the extra crit on bleeding targets talent

also it is odd what talent do you choose on that row for single target i don't feel like its that big of an issue but you loose a whole talent row on a single target fight. though single target fights really don't exist anymore


It's datamined but druid discord put a mockup up.

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/IFB6P7XLyyVFp6QJ_Pz-bLIsA_dhtv078H00VdBC3M0/https/i.gyazo.com/thumb/1200/25ba905a6f5780b43db734f0c4822de4-png.jpg

(Rockford) #773
09/22/2018 07:33 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
Yes but then it would require so much more setup/ramp up time; It's a bleed finisher, requiring another buffed bleed finisher... for aoe? nah, no ty. If it has to spread an existing bleed to avoid interfering with the current snapshotted one, then I would strongly prefer that it spreads Rake, not Rip.
Yeah, good call. It's definitely something for the devs to think about, and I'm not certain of the best way to implement such an AoE finisher without introducing issues.

Unless maybe it's treated like Arm's Warbreaker in that it replaces Rip, still has the exact coefficients for Rip, but used in such a way that applies in an AoE, and still subject to the usual snapshot gameplay.

Edit: Looking at the ability.
Primal Wrath
20 Energy / 1 to 5 Combo Points
Instant
Requires Druid (Feral)
Requires level 90
Finishing move that deals instant damage and applies Rip to all enemies within 10 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.

1 point : [(5% of Attack power) * 2] plus Rip for 4 sec
2 points: [(5% of Attack power) * 3] plus Rip for 6 sec
3 points: [(5% of Attack power) * 4] plus Rip for 8 sec
4 points: [(5% of Attack power) * 5] plus Rip for 10 sec
5 points: [(5% of Attack power) * 6] plus Rip for 12 sec

Makes for a weaker version of Rip (25%ap * #), and half the length. While these are initial datamining figures, and not at all accurate for final release, it would be worth considering feedback.

(Lolaan) #774
09/23/2018 04:56 AMPosted by Rockford
Makes for a weaker version of Rip (25%ap * #), and half the length. While these are initial datamining figures, and not at all accurate for final release, it would be worth considering feedback.
That's not how I read it. The Rip damage is the same (note how it says "plus Rip") and you get 5% AP * (#CPs + 1) instant damage up front. It's essentially 60-70% of a Rip.

You get half a Rip and 4.8 ticks worth of up front damage. At 0 haste that's 20% of a Rip, less with more haste since the up front damage presumably does not scale with haste.

(Ravensong) #775
09/23/2018 06:31 AMPosted by Lolaan
That's not how I read it. The Rip damage is the same (note how it says "plus Rip") and you get 5% AP * (#CPs + 1) instant damage up front. It's essentially 60-70% of a Rip.

You get half a Rip and 4.8 ticks worth of up front damage. At 0 haste that's 20% of a Rip, less with more haste since the up front damage presumably does not scale with haste.


I wonder how it will scale with mastery, since mastery will improve both bleed effects and finishing moves. Makes me wonder how that will apply to both Rip and this new finisher.

(Brún) #776
09/23/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Ravensong
09/23/2018 06:31 AMPosted by Lolaan
That's not how I read it. The Rip damage is the same (note how it says "plus Rip") and you get 5% AP * (#CPs + 1) instant damage up front. It's essentially 60-70% of a Rip.

You get half a Rip and 4.8 ticks worth of up front damage. At 0 haste that's 20% of a Rip, less with more haste since the up front damage presumably does not scale with haste.


I wonder how it will scale with mastery, since mastery will improve both bleed effects and finishing moves. Makes me wonder how that will apply to both Rip and this new finisher.


Mastery should buff the DD of PW as a finisher. As bleeds the Rips will benefit as normal. No part of any ability will “double dip” on mastery.

(Lolaan) #777
09/23/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Ravensong
I wonder how it will scale with mastery, since mastery will improve both bleed effects and finishing moves. Makes me wonder how that will apply to both Rip and this new finisher.
You mean like double dipping? Not gonna happen. It'll affect both the instant damage and the Rip portion, but only once.

A lot of these changes are basically giving us what Rogues already had (although changed a bit here and there)

Mastery affecting finishing moves:
- Assassination had Bleed and Poison and Envenom was already poison damage and thus affected by mastery (and Kidney Shot with Internal Bleeding talent already did bleed damage so was affected by Mastery).

Predatory Wounds:
- is copy/paste Crimson Tempest (instant damage plus short DoT)

Rip duration increase per CP instead of damage:
- Rupture has been this way since vanilla

Savage Roar affecting energy regen
- Slice and Dice has had this for many expansions and Inquisition, a similar ability for Ret Paladins that got readded is now Damage/Haste split instead of just damage it had before.

Scent of Blood was on the artifact.

Not saying these aren't good things, they are. Of course I can't even get onto the PTR yet and these changes might only be the first batch, we'll have to see what happens and how they all work out.

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We still need some sort of utility pass IMO.

- We don't bring some of our class's strongest utilities, Solar Beam, Ursol's Vortex and Innervate (heard it mentioned before, but adding some of these to the Affinity row would make it far more interesting).
- We're still removed from form when using Remove Corruption, Hibernate, and Entangling Roots* (meaning they cost multiple globals and auto-attacks). Perhaps they don't want the CC used in forms but I see no reason Remove Corruption can't be changed when Soothe is usable in form. Moonkins I think suffer from some of these too.
*Entangling Roots can be used in form with a Predatory Swiftness proc.

(Martei) #778
moonkins can remove poison with out coming out of form

(Rockford) #779
Just some clarifications/corrections on the comparison to Rogues. Of which i fully welcome the move towards Feral being a functioning spec, and some homogenisation would not hurt in the least.
09/23/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Lolaan
Mastery affecting finishing moves:
- Assassination had Bleed and Poison and Envenom was already poison damage and thus affected by mastery (and Kidney Shot with Internal Bleeding talent already did bleed damage so was affected by Mastery).
BFA release introduced the bleed aspect to it's mastery, where it was previously limited to just poisons. This directly opened up talent options to the stat.
09/23/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Lolaan
Predatory Wounds:
- is copy/paste Crimson Tempest (instant damage plus short DoT)
Except Tempest has it's own bleed, separate from any application of Rupture.
09/23/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Lolaan
Rip duration increase per CP instead of damage:
- Rupture has been this way since vanilla
Correction: Rupture duration increase per CP was introduced in 7.1.5, where it was previously similar to Feral's current Rip.
09/23/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Lolaan
Savage Roar affecting energy regen
- Slice and Dice has had this for many expansions and Inquisition, a similar ability for Ret Paladins that got readded is now Damage/Haste split instead of just damage it had before.
SnD is currently a talent that replaces Roll the Bones for Outlaw Rogue. These are currently the spec's maintenance spenders instead of a bleed. It currently differs from SR in that it specifically increases attack speed (instead of flat % of damage), while the energy regen component was added in 7.1.5.

(Knailo) #780
As promising as the changes are, thanks to BT I'm still not coming back to feral.

Bloodtalons is still the odd ball in the lot. It will be mandatory for PW.

Feral Frenzy is still single target. That and BT on the same tier renders the talent useless.

(Lolaan) #781
BFA release introduced the bleed aspect to it's mastery, where it was previously limited to just poisons. This directly opened up talent options to the stat.
True, though before that a portion of Rupture's damage was based on poison through some passive I forget the name of.

Correction: Rupture duration increase per CP was introduced in 7.1.5, where it was previously similar to Feral's current Rip.
Incorrect (or not entirely correct anyhow), Rupture has always increased in duration based on combo points. The problem that was corrected in 7.1.5 was that Rupture somewhere along the way started scaling with both damage and duration: http://i.imgur.com/2ZFSsiY.png
... leading to it doing both higher DPS and at a longer duration at higher CPs. This seems to have been a bug since 6.0.1 (Tue Aug 19 2014) Build 18297 when they removed flat damage from abilities; they accidentally copied over the CP multiplier to the AP portion, which already had a multiplier based on duration.

09/23/2018 06:32 PMPosted by Rockford
SnD is currently a talent that replaces Roll the Bones for Outlaw Rogue. These are currently the spec's maintenance spenders instead of a bleed. It currently differs from SR in that it specifically increases attack speed (instead of flat % of damage), while the energy regen component was added in 7.1.5.
Yeah, though RtB is much harder to really compare to, which is why I used SnD. While it's true that SnD's direct Energy Regen bonus is relatively new, Combat Potency turned that attack speed gain into Energy Regen indirectly. Savage Roar's damage bonus didn't.

Except Tempest has it's own bleed, separate from any application of Rupture.
True, and it's balanced such that it doesn't replace Envenom on single target despite that fact. Under current tuning PW looks like it would be worth keeping up were it a separate bleed. Still quite obviously a copy/paste job because it has a 10 yard aoe range when all the rest of our aoe abilities are 8 (where as assassination rogue's is 10 with both FoK and CT)

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Again, none of these are really bad things, they're good changes. It just sucks feeling like when Rogues get a QoL change, we always lag behind (I could list a gazillion things that have been like this).

(Lolaan) #782
09/23/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Knailo
As promising as the changes are, thanks to BT I'm still not coming back to feral.

Bloodtalons is still the odd ball in the lot. It will be mandatory for PW.

Feral Frenzy is still single target. That and BT on the same tier renders the talent useless.


Easy fix, make FF aoe!

(Brokenclaws) #783
Anyone on the PTR able to tell me if the mastery bonus to finishers effects Savage Roar?