BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Brokenclaws) #744
Feels like Feral is just not set up for high end PvE anymore. I understand blizzard wants us to wait for 8.1 for fixes, but this seems pretty extreme considering how we are being denied spots for M+ and Mythic Raiding. I haven't touched any Mythic Raiding but I know I can't even get into a M0 without tanking.

(Cluey) #745
The initial round of buffs looked too low for the bottom classes, Fire mage got the biggest at 6% but they, like Feral, are still not doing well. I assume there will be more tweaks this reset after they look at the data from this week. Given the low representation it might be too late by the time they balance things. :-(

A few of you have typed, Feral overhaul/rework and I think you should be cautious in hoping for that. What was said indicated that some tweaks and talent shuffles could happen. Nothing was said about redoing the spec like shamans and Spriests are getting.

For me, currently, it doesn't matter as my subscription expired. I almost just renewed it but thought about it overnight, in the morning I didn't think it was worth paying for, at least not in its current state.
Not just feral but the game in general, the horrible lag has been more off-putting than the state of feral. Feral is lacking DPS but still, mostly, functions. It's not how it was at the end of Legion but I don't mind that so much.

09/20/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Grýph
This raiding week I was the only feral Druid left or at least in the raid. I do want to play the Feral Druid. I really do and I know someone has to be 18th or 20th on DPS but I shouldn't be getting destroyed on the meter.

I'm not wanting to be rude here but it will come across that way.
Comparing for ilvl you didn't do very well, so some of that lack of performance is on you.
You didn't change talents the entire raid and only changed gear, it looks like, when you got some upgrades.

(Brokenclaws) #746
I think a rework is basically all they can do at this point though. We don't have the proper tools to handle the game at this point. It's either rework or buff damage to make us worthwhile in raids/m+

If your playing perfectly our single target dps is barely middle of the pack. Our AoE is trash. We simply can't compete in the game as its designed now.

A lot of us are doing less damage simply because we refuse to take blood talons/lunar inspiration. I find that play style horrible. Those talents should be leading the other talents by the huge % margin they are.

I'm fine with losing some dps to play how I would like over a competitive build. But we are losing tons of damage just by not speccing/using blood talons perfectly and that sucks.

(Brún) #747
You didn't change talents the entire raid and only changed gear, it looks like, when you got some upgrades


Not to be rude but there might be one fight in Uldir where it’s worth changing talents. If you don’t have 3x Wild Fleshrending it probably isn’t worth doing even that.

(Brokenclaws) #748
I'm debating if I want to drop my 370 chest piece for an additional wild fleshrending 340 piece. Anything to get my dps a bit higher. Thinking the extra damage to shred might offset the lost agility.

(Breathoflife) #749
09/21/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Brokenclaws
I'm debating if I want to drop my 370 chest piece for an additional wild fleshrending 340 piece. Anything to get my dps a bit higher. Thinking the extra damage to shred might offset the lost agility.


Your name is super fitting for a feral druid

(Telfurian) #750
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287352/patch-8-1-ptr-27826-class-changes-elemental-shaman-feral-druid-talents-and-taunt

For those of you that haven't seen the Feral druid changes planned for 8.1

AoE rip finisher
Rip now scales with time per combo point instead of damage
Mastery now increases damage from bleeds and finishers so FB increased as well
SR now increases damage by 10% and energy regen by 10%
Scent of Blood (New): Each enemy hit by Thrash reduces the cost of Swipe by 3 Energy for the next 6 sec.

plus there's talent row swaps.

This looks dope and goes a long way to addressing the exact issues people had and implementing a lot of the changes that have been mentioned in the these threads.

(Yime) #751
Hoping there's a baseline energy regen increase to go along with our contribution from haste presumably dropping to 100%.

These look like interesting changes so far. Excited to get on the PTR and try them out.

Has Predator been deleted as a talent? It's late here in the EU and I'm tired so I may not be reading that right. If so, I have mixed feelings: it's fun, but I can see how a constant resupply of energy and extra damage in AOE situations makes our damage difficult to tune.

Looks like Jagged Wounds is gone, too. Not surprising.

(Rayen) #752
All I can say about these new ptr changes- Thank You!

(Disargeria) #753
So we gained a sustained AoE option, and our mastery scales slightly better. Okay. That's not too exciting.

But losing Rip refresh? Losing Predator? Are you kidding me? Those are both HUGE QoL mechanics for Feral. Soloing as Feral is atrocious without Predator, it's a talent I've always specced into for QoL.

This seems like a step backwards for Feral QoL.

(Telfurian) #754
09/21/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Disargeria
So we gained a sustained AoE option, and our mastery scales slightly better. Okay. That's not too exciting.

But losing Rip refresh? Losing Predator? Are you kidding me? Those are both HUGE QoL mechanics for Feral. Soloing as Feral is atrocious without Predator, it's a talent I've always specced into for QoL.

This seems like a step backwards for Feral QoL.


Predator was realistically only useful in solo situations and going from mob to mob. In m+ most things died all together and you would only get 1 reset of predator without spamming it and energy capping anyway. Sabortooth is replacing it in that tier and with the mastery change it appears that they want people to be able to pick the bleed style or direct damage ways of playing.

Rip combo points scale of time now which is huge for multi dotting, it also only costs 20 energy instead of 30.

SR will help compensate it's use with energy regen

Having an AoE rip finisher will be huge for our sustain aoe, something we are lacking in. Brutal slash also got a damage increase and energy decrease as well. They basically gave us an aoe tier so we don't have to pick between aoe and ST talents, which is a bigger bonus than it seems.

There's obviously more changes still to come because they've left out talents. Hard to keep track of all the moving but it appears we are missing a lvl 15 talent still.

(Yime) #755
Giving us an AOE tier is so good. And I love one of those options being a Rip-spreader -- this will mean we have a high-damage AOE option that actually scales with our mastery!

The Rip change itself is overdue but extremely welcome.

Deleting Predator would never have occurred to me but I've warmed to the idea. It does currently generally lead to us either being hilariously flooded with energy and with a permanent damage buff, or getting no benefit from it at all because nothing happens to have died recently. Without it our energy regeneration and damage can hopefully be tuned more tightly.

Considering I've spent approximately the last million years complaining about how Savage Roar has no tangible effect on your rotation, how you could only see if it was on by looking at your buff list and the damage meter, I'm excited to see it getting an energy gen effect. I love the idea of hitting Savage Roar and being able to feel the difference!

Fingers crossed for some Guardian changes to turn up in later builds of this patch. Then I can make my Demon Hunter my alt again and return to my main-since-vanilla.

(Kraineth) #756
Rip Change (CP = duration and not damage)

Good Change, been asking for this since assassination rogues got this for Rupture 2 years ago.

Scent of Blood

Nice to see a good artifact trait revived, a bit hamfisted since the duration of the buff is 6 seconds which means we would probably end up doing a lot of overwriting on thrash bleed. this was alright in Legion because we had the other trait that could proc aoe damage on a thrash cast.

Primal Wrath (aoe rip finisher) - glad to finally see a viable way to spend combo points effectively in AoE. I am a bit concerned about how this will interact with a 20+ second duration rip that I would have up on a boss buffed by both Tiger's Fury and Bloodtalons. I think I would prefer for the finisher to apply a new bleed so that it wouldn't overwrite anything. The damage on a 12 second Rip shouldn't ever be competitive enough that we would replace an aoe bleed finisher in single target over Ferocious Bite. So please consider making this finisher an entirely new bleed

(Andrewo) #757
The rip azerite trait might actually be worth getting now. Could generate some nice cp on aoe.

(Ancihcaor) #758
Those Rip changes are great! now cost 20 energy (down from 30) is nice but it's the fixed damage + last longer per combo point that takes the prize :)

FB is now scaling with Mastery? also very nice!

Shred buffed by 20% is welcome, I hope we'll see the same increase for Swipe in a later build.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I don't see Predator being removed. Blood Scent and Jagged Wounds got cut but Predator is still there.

Now about talents, the first row now almost feels like it gives 3 ways to increase cleave dot damage while also increasing ST. I still hope that they change Moonfire to be usable in all forms baseline (no cp + weak damage) and Lunar inspiration would then add the cp + strongly increase the damage.

Level 75 row is a lot better too, with the change to SR, they all offer a buff to both damage and energy. I wonder how the 3 options on this row are gonna sim, especially with the slight nerf to Incarnation (Shred bonus damage while stealth reduced to 30% down from 50% and it's 30 sec duration is now less of an increase relative to the new Berserk 20 sec duration.

AoE tier is nice too. Scent of Blood makes a welcome return! Like Kraineth already mentioned, this is without Shadow Thrash while still on a 6 sec duration, so I suggest changing Thrash to be able to stack 3 times when applied in Cat from just like when applied in Bear form. I am mostly curious about testing the new AoE finisher. Does this means that we'll eventually see a change to Gushing Lacerations in a future build?

(Hydroxine) #759
dh is still the way to go.. this is going to change nothing, id much rather save time effort and energy pressing a couple buttons instead of mangling my fingers to do bottom tier dps.

ferals have been stigma branded, the ones that pug especially... no amount of changes is going to get you into mythic + over a rogue dh or warrior. its just not.
next expac + rework is your only shot at that... we had a reset button in this expac where people forgot about the crap but its all over now.. time was a major factor here and as far as im concerned they failed.. hard...

dont get me started on azerite bs..

(Butterbao) #760
09/21/2018 04:57 PMPosted by Telfurian
Sabortooth is replacing it in that tier and with the mastery change it appears that they want people to be able to pick the bleed style or direct damage ways of playing.
The problem now, is the change of play at execution range and the cost of our finishers.

Ferocious Bite on PTR has lost the rip refresh ability at 25%. In other words, unless you take Sabertooth, Ferocious Bite will have a very low usage in your rotation even at execution range. I suppose this change would take time for community to adjust.

And then the 'humongous' 50 energy cost on Ferocious Bite, which now seems even more gargantuan when both Rip and Primal Wrath is now a measly 20 energy. If FB is having 2.5x more energy cost, the damage should be well worth the investment. Unless they are intentionally tuning FB as our primary way to avoid energy capping.

The mastery change is a great step forward. Though it still sync better with bleed builds with rake/thrash, but FB getting some boost from mastery is a good sign.

09/21/2018 04:57 PMPosted by Telfurian
Having an AoE rip finisher will be huge for our sustain aoe, something we are lacking in. Brutal slash also got a damage increase and energy decrease as well. They basically gave us an aoe tier so we don't have to pick between aoe and ST talents, which is a bigger bonus than it seems.
While we haven't play with the numbers to determine whether will this row be balance or don't, at least 1 thing they did right - thematically speaking, this entire row now actually makes more sense with Brutal Slash than it ever did in the past.

09/21/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
Level 75 row is a lot better too, with the change to SR, they all offer a buff to both damage and energy. I wonder how the 3 options on this row are gonna sim, especially with the slight nerf to Incarnation (Shred bonus damage while stealth reduced to 30% down from 50% and it's 30 sec duration is now less of an increase relative to the new Berserk 20 sec duration.
The change to SR seems to make the row more thematically align - every talent has some way to manipulate energy regeneration, albeit working differently.

But if i were to guess - i would say Soul of the Forest would become surprisingly good, giving the change to Rip.

09/21/2018 06:00 PMPosted by Kraineth
I am a bit concerned about how this will interact with a 20+ second duration rip that I would have up on a boss buffed by both Tiger's Fury and Bloodtalons. I think I would prefer for the finisher to apply a new bleed so that it wouldn't overwrite anything. The damage on a 12 second Rip shouldn't ever be competitive enough that we would replace an aoe bleed finisher in single target over Ferocious Bite. So please consider making this finisher an entirely new bleed
Agreed. I'm also concerned if Primal Wrath would be 'too good' to sync with Bloodtalons.

Though i recall they mentioning about reworking Bloodtalons? Might still be too early to tell.

(Grýph) #761
Well last nights raid for me was the straw that broke the camels back. I was so frustrated by my characters poor performance that after raid I went to my raid leader and told them I was changing my main.

What is this crap? How can we be left in this poor state? At the very least put a bandage on classes that need it till you can really fix them properly. Where is the urgency? People like to know they can play what they want to play and how they want to play it without hurting their guilds progression.

That most certainly is not the case with Feral Druids. It is too late for me but you still have time to help the other Feral Druids out there Blizzard. Waiting till 8.1 doesn't do any good to players looking to clear 8.0 content.

(Rhahen) #762
A few worries I have with the 8.1 changes:

-Sabertooth is way too strong on its tier now that natural Rip refresh was removed. The 20% Ferocious Bite buff is gonna have to go to retain parity.

-Brutal Slash is either the go to ST talent on its tier or it’s dead in the water for AoE compared to the competition.

-Scent of Blood’s viability is entirely dependent on how many pieces of Wild Fleshrending we can get ahold of. Either it’s going to be too strong or not strong enough

-Wild Fleshrending is quickly spiking up in value and it’ll get to a point where it’s mandatory for any Feral build. All nerfs to Haste scaling for base energy indirectly buffs Wild Fleshrending over almost evey other Azerite trait.

-Lunar Inspiration needs to be affected by Mastery now. When the 25% extra haste scaling is removed, it’s going to be dead in the water compared Bloodscent and Sabertooth which both scale with Mastery. Not to mention that removing haste scaling for energy regeneration also benefits the other two even more.

So some changes I’m hoping to see for the next Feral update:

+ Damage aura increase
+ Energy regeneration increase (30%?)
+ Moonfire affected by Mastery
+ Swipe damage increased

- Haste bonus removed
- Sabertooth damage bonus removed
- Wild Fleshrending Azerite nerf (20%)
- Power of the Moon Azerite nerf (to prevent the Moonfire spam with Mastery buff)

I can’t see a way to fix the Brutal Slash dilemma. Also even with a damage nerf, keep in mind that Sabertooth will roll a max snapshot Rip throughout an entire fight so it still might be too strong.

(Ravensong) #763
09/21/2018 06:00 PMPosted by Kraineth
Primal Wrath (aoe rip finisher) - glad to finally see a viable way to spend combo points effectively in AoE. I am a bit concerned about how this will interact with a 20+ second duration rip that I would have up on a boss buffed by both Tiger's Fury and Bloodtalons. I think I would prefer for the finisher to apply a new bleed so that it wouldn't overwrite anything. The damage on a 12 second Rip shouldn't ever be competitive enough that we would replace an aoe bleed finisher in single target over Ferocious Bite. So please consider making this finisher an entirely new bleed


I disagree with the idea of it being a separate bleed effect. If it was separate we would actually be required to use both on a single target. It would end up more like Thrash Vs Rake in that way. (Which is why I have long thought Thrash should just apply Rake to multiple targets rather than being a separate dot which drives us to use it single target if it is even a minor increase to damage Vs energy cost)

It should be the same Rip effect, with the same duration per combo point spent. But it should cost more energy so that it becomes less efficient to use it in single target over AOE. Not so much to be overly punishing, but enough to make using it single target pointless since you are using more energy for the same damage.

It should be more efficient in cleave and AOE, but cost more in single target so we prefer the standard Rip. This way, there is no need, or desire to use this for anything except it's intended use.

This is why Brutal Slash is good for single target. It hits hard and costs little energy. This energy efficiency makes it win out over any single target (Direct damage) ability. That's the entire reason they had to add in charges. Because otherwise we would never use Shred over BrS. So the charges are there to limit this.

Being a bleed effect with combo points, a charge system will not work, or make sense. So I think the only way it can be made AOE only, is to apply the same effect for a higher cost (Than the single target ability). This way, you don't get to double dip (double Rip?) for little cost.