BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)


(Brokenclaws) #684
It's true the spec has very little synergy with itself. The only abilities that make our other abilitys function differently are...

Prowl/Incarnation and other than Rake stun, it does nothing but add % damage on.

Tigers Fury = +% damage done and a bit more resource

Blood Talons = +% damage done

MoC/OoC are at least "Hey press this button for free!" with some dmg % bonus if talented.

Nothing makes other abilities do anything new or interesting. Its a very flat bland slow play style.

I love feral, I don't mind being the bleed spec. It would be cool if we could do something other than flat % dmg boosts from our abilities.

(Ancihcaor) #685
09/13/2018 11:40 AMPosted by Martei
Starting to think maybe it's a critical thing fire mages rely on crit as well and there at the bottom. Feral likes crit not only for damage but for that extra combo point which gives more energy and would also explain why feral is strong near end of expansions

Assassination Rogues also like crit for combo points generation (Seal Fate) and yet they have been pretty constantly good at start and end of expansions. The problem is mostly that the never have well designed and tuned all specs at launch, so a few of the least played specs (low priority) have to wait for the first or second major content patch to get fixed.

(WasabĂ­cannon) #686
09/13/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Ancihcaor
09/13/2018 11:40 AMPosted by Martei
Starting to think maybe it's a critical thing fire mages rely on crit as well and there at the bottom. Feral likes crit not only for damage but for that extra combo point which gives more energy and would also explain why feral is strong near end of expansions

Assassination Rogues also like crit for combo points generation (Seal Fate) and yet they have been pretty constantly good at start and end of expansions. The problem is mostly that the never have well designed and tuned all specs at launch, so a few of the least played specs (low priority) have to wait for the first or second major content patch to get fixed.


Don't assassin rogues also get a talent that increases energy regen and their abilities just flat out do more damage then ours even with BT?

(Martei) #687
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Assassination Rogues also like crit for combo points generation (Seal Fate) and yet they have been pretty constantly good at start and end of expansions. The problem is mostly that the never have well designed and tuned all specs at launch, so a few of the least played specs (low priority) have to wait for the first or second major content patch to get fixed.


Don't assassin rogues also get a talent that increases energy regen and their abilities just flat out do more damage then ours even with BT?


Not sure if its still around but yah i think there was something like off hand attacks generate energy or something along those lines. Feral just gets tigers fury every 30 secs not sure how much of a difference that is though. Was in a discord channel with our assassin rogue and he was doing a mythic 8 waycrest manor when he suddenly said oh yah 60k eviscerate not sure if theres something in there that buffs damage or something or he was exaggerating but that seems ridiculous given that fb may hit for 35k.

(Brokenclaws) #688
For those of us that don't like the LI/BT build. It looks like Wild Fleshrending might get you some decent dps with SR/MoC. It's popped up on a few of the logs and might be worth looking into. I'm going to attempt to get these peices again.

I was told by the druid forms it was the worst trait to get....so I DEed them for enchanting mats. I feel pretty smart now for not testing it myself.

(Darkestalker) #689
09/14/2018 04:33 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
For those of us that don't like the LI/BT build. It looks like Wild Fleshrending might get you some decent dps with SR/MoC. It's popped up on a few of the logs and might be worth looking into. I'm going to attempt to get these peices again.

I was told by the druid forms it was the worst trait to get....so I DEed them for enchanting mats. I feel pretty smart now for not testing it myself.


There were a few posts that people were raving about them so I tried it. Definitely helps with single target damage, AOE was still trash though, if you can get at least 2 of them. Whether or not it's better than Ditb or TB I don't know although the sims were showing them slighly out performing Wild Fleshrending, but then sims you always take with a grain of salt.

(Darkestalker) #690
Ok - so Shaman's and Druids (and I guess Pally's?) are still considered "hybrids".


Increasingly, WoW effectively has 36 classes to maintain and balance, and certainly in the case of full hybrids like Shaman, the considerations that go into each of the three specs vary very heavily.


So that explains it, we're back to the old hybrid tax, lol. Of course that doesn't explain it for the traditional "non-hybrids" that are doing poorly. I'm still not giving up but my feral is going to be open world stuff only or friends only at this point. /sadkitty


Broadly, we've tried to define areas in which specializations should excel (single-target, cleave, AoE, spread, clumped, burst, sustained, etc.), and areas where they should lag behind. We've restored some unique tools like Tremor Totem or Soothe, and are open to adding more going forward as needed. Philosophically, there should always be a reason why a group is happy to have X class/spec present, and situations where a group says "man, I really wish we had a Y to deal with this." At the same time, it's essential that classes have weaknesses, or else everyone ends up too similar to one another. Elemental Shaman is intended to be a less mobile spec, for example, while Hunters overall have mobility as an explicit strength. So when we receive feedback that a less mobile spec wishes they were more mobile, frankly, that's working as intended. But that only really works if you feel like you have offsetting strengths, envied by other classes, that justify the reduced mobility. And it certainly doesn't help if we aren't communicating that vision of what strengths and weaknesses are intended to be. We know that we need to do better there.

So the question of "what is the feral's place in the game supposed to, and also our balance bretheren" is still open and unanswered at this time. I personally feel that if they could at least definitively state what they are aiming for, i.e. Balance should be strong in cleave situations though not necessarily so in large add situations and moderate in single target, Feral should be strong in ST and moderate in cleaving situation, and weak in aoe situations. At least then it's easier to give valid feedback. /sigh

(Martei) #691
"Broadly, we've tried to define areas in which specializations should excel (single-target, cleave, AoE, spread, clumped, burst, sustained, etc.), and areas where they should lag behind. We've restored some unique tools like Tremor Totem or Soothe, and are open to adding more going forward as needed. Philosophically, there should always be a reason why a group is happy to have X class/spec present, and situations where a group says "man, I really wish we had a Y to deal with this." At the same time, it's essential that classes have weaknesses, or else everyone ends up too similar to one another. "

Really hate this I mean you cant even see single target damage in most fights. This is why people see feral as bad. There pretty much isn't a fight now where feral can shine because they don't make single target fights. By that I mean a single target fight that doesn't break ferals rotation either.

Here is a single target fight but the boss will put a debuff on you so you have to run out and stop attacking while this happens your bleeds fall off now start your mile long ramp up again by this point your dps of course will look like crap. Or the boss disappears while you have to soak stuff all your bleeds fall off start your mile on ramp up again.

The big problem is people look at meters and meters show all damage so when lots of fights have cleave or aoe it makes those numbers bigger while the single target numbers look like crap and there is no way to make people look at it differently.

Also I see they are working on shadow priest and shamans are they also looking at feral for this upcoming stuff? Not saying we are as bad as the other specs/classes but are they doing feral with this as well or is it just the 2. More info would be nice on this front. I know we got the blue who said they were looking into things but is that fora later patch then the other classes/specs or with them kind of thing.

I can see that our single target is fairly strong still think other specs are stronger but like i said you just cant see it cause of how encounters are designed now. Also the oh "I wish we had this to deal with this" at what point would you ever say you want a feral to deal with something we literally bring nothing that some other spec cant bring or do.

Would love something like Battle Roar to match warriors battle cry or something. That could be nice. they got rid of all these unique buffs cause then you need one of each and now we are back to it raid didn't have a war yesterday so all the melee went without. Also had an officer complain later on that they literally formed the raid around said specific buffs (war,demon hunter and so on buffs are what I'm referring to)

(Bearzerk) #692
Well cats, it's official; more short term tuning is on the way! ...I doubt it will amount to anything.

(Massiveatack) #693
09/14/2018 07:52 PMPosted by Bearzerk
Well cats, it's official; more short term tuning is on the way! ...I doubt it will amount to anything.
where's that information come from? Could share a link? Thanks.

(Bearzerk) #694
We do have further overall short-term balancing to do (via hotfix). We can't fix mechanics and rotational issues that way, but when it comes to numbers, we'll definitely be looking at shaman performance in the near future.


It is in the AMA. They are doing another balance tuning hotfix and I'm not jaded enough to think it won't include feral. I AM jaded enough to think it won't amount to anything.

(Martei) #695
"While that sounds great that leads into problems like what feral is experiencing. The design goal of the spec seems to be mostly on single target damage with low AoE but the problem is that M+ and almost all the Uldir fights heavily favor AoE/cleave. This means that no one wants to take a feral to a M+ even if our ST damage isn't completely awful. A spec should be usable in ALL areas of the game.
Just to jump in here: it's important to recognize that giving each spec an area to excel in doesn't mean we want you to be dead weight when put in other situations. It's a very delicate balance to nail, but the goal is to create an environment where you can feel awesome when your ideal situations arise but still contribute otherwise.

There will probably always be environments where that can't be 100% successful, such as world first raiding where guilds are min/maxing raid compositions on a per-fight basis, but we're still committed to doing our best."

Thought I was done but I'm not apparently. This answer practically says we know that the single target niche is not going to be wanted but we will try to make it not suck too much.

(Yime) #696
I'm really hoping our single-target "strength" doesn't end up being only technically true; i.e. if we're balanced so if we get to sit on the boss 90-100% of the time so our bleeds never fall off and we never have to rebuild our rotation from scratch then we're top 5, but those situations never actually come up in encounter design, then that's not actually a strength.

The way Feral's single-target "strength" is generally designed means it hasn't been a real strength for a long time, because of the way raids and mythic+ are designed.

It's a double kick in the teeth to then have that "strength" used as an excuse for why our AoE is terrible.

(Fairyland) #697
09/14/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Martei
Would love something like Battle Roar to match warriors battle cry or something. That could be nice. they got rid of all these unique buffs cause then you need one of each and now we are back to it raid didn't have a war yesterday so all the melee went without. Also had an officer complain later on that they literally formed the raid around said specific buffs (war,demon hunter and so on buffs are what I'm referring to)
Which is one of the main reasons why i was skeptical about bringing back class-specific buffs.

I wouldn't say it was perfect, but having several class/spec able to bring similar buffs - example extra hp from Fortitude was replaceable by a warlock with Blood Pact - actually makes it easier for small family-n-friends guild/group to still do their group content without reshuffling their roster.

Now? If you have 6+ melee DPS in your raid, there's no reason why you should not bring a warrior and a monk. Like wise, there's no reason not to reserve a spot for a demon hunter if majority of the dps are casters.

Or are we saying that 5% more magic/physical damage is 'not mandatory'?

I guess that's why these recent hotfixes are using 5% then - so groups can ignore that 5% debuff since most people are now 5% stronger?

Or perhaps they think since we 'should' have that 5% debuff in our group/raid, so the hotfix are actually more like 10%?

(Rockford) #698
09/15/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Yime
I'm really hoping our single-target "strength" doesn't end up being only technically true; i.e. if we're balanced so if we get to sit on the boss 90-100% of the time so our bleeds never fall off and we never have to rebuild our rotation from scratch then we're top 5, but those situations never actually come up in encounter design, then that's not actually a strength.

The way Feral's single-target "strength" is generally designed means it hasn't been a real strength for a long time, because of the way raids and mythic+ are designed.

It's a double kick in the teeth to then have that "strength" used as an excuse for why our AoE is terrible.
I've said it a while back, that despite having this ST strength, it hasn't actually existed for some time since development has been attempting to balance the output of all classes in this regard.

Simply look at the logs from patchwork encounters, and we'll see a mixture of specs that do well in both AoE and ST.

So as mentioned above, Feral is punished for a non existent strength.

(Hrothknut) #699
09/15/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Rockford
So as mentioned above, Feral is punished for a non existent strength.


Yes, essentially. And one with a long ramp to boot (the whole problem of DoT classes generally speaking- and a melee DoT class that doesn't even get the benefits of spread multi-dotting like a Afflock/Boomy/SP). It's the worst of all worlds, and the nature of the DD vs bleed fights in the first thread and again in this one (PS bloodtalons go die plz kthx).

Feral has an old WotLK-era Patchwerk sim toolkit in a modern, mobile, add and mechanics ridden M+/raiding paradigm. Swing and a miss by the dev team.

(Hydroxine) #700
Re-rolled demon hunter, couldn't be happier. Good luck to the rest of you waiting until patch 8.3.5 for any meaningful changes. But it won't matter by then anyway.

#Feral is fine because i swapped classes and don't care anymore

#buff demon hunters.

(Tribalclaw) #701
Bring back Leader of the Pack buff and MotW, please. <3

(Dookaan) #702
Only someone with an agenda could pretend that the numbers of ferals do not need a buff.

(Martei) #703
09/15/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Tribalclaw
Bring back Leader of the Pack buff and MotW, please. <3


would be nice