So as a Guardian, it’s my plan to send you into danger so i can then hit something harder as Ret, sounds less like a Guardian and more like a Degenerdian tbh…
(I’m sorry, i even feel bad for posting this…)
5 Likes
Yeah, where is our Divine Sacrifice?
Yep. Paladin = Fantasy paladin not historical crusader.
All joke talents that shouldn’t be in the game. Seal of the Crusader especially has absolutely no place in the game.
It is literally a bait talent to screw over newer players.
Still a big rip.
You know where we get all of this?
WotLK classic.
14 Likes
this is very true, you look at the tree’s that others have got and yes there are issues, but they look interesting and theres new synergies there.
Pali’s look uninspired and make us feel like we have less than we currently do.
11 Likes
Yeah, I talked to a buddy of mine the other day about this. What people might not realize is that Paladins have a lot of Shadowlands’ talents being implemented as optional talents, instead of being spread across the tree.
Healing Hands and Selfless Healer are an optional node talent for Paladins.
SoV and DP are an optional node talent for Paladins.
Defensive Stance and Stormbolt are not for Warriors.
Dark Pact and Wrath Walk are not for DKs.
Feral Lunge and Nature’s Guardian are not for Enhancement.
We are still making choices within our talents for these very impactful abilities, while no one else is. Blizzard has to see this right?
4 Likes
maybe thats the plan, just have all the pali’s go play wrath so they can shelve pali’s in the live game 
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I still hope that they do and i do hope the tree’s we have are more about pathing than the abilities themselves, but now we are into beta, its getting harder and harder to be hyped about the Paladin.
They just dont currently offer anything close to what we have been told is the vision. In someways we have gotten further away from it with the changes we have seen.
That’s an interesting statement and I’d actually like to see the numbers.
I have noticed we have a huge amount of choice nodes, It would be interesting to see just how many compared to other classes.
Seriously Divine Sacrifice baseline for all specializations and then for protection give them Divine Guardian as an upgraded version of the ability. I think Paladins could also have an effect similar to Halls of Valor where you stand behind the person who holds up a shield to reduce damage to you. We would be the ones to stand and cover our allies in combat.
Give us our old school Greater Blessings back. Let us be what we were so long ago. We are the protectors, the defenders, the holy knights who guard the realms.
8 Likes
I think if they were going to make any major changes to our talents they would have done so already. Like we would have already seen some throughput talents get replaced or stuff like Steed or AW go baseline. Those are simple changes similar to what they’re done with other classes. Lets hope there is more in the pipeline but I wouldn’t be surprised if holy gets a bit more work and the other trees only see minor changes before going live. Paladins getting a battle res just feels like the Devs acknowledging that we won’t be getting much more development.
3 Likes
I mean, it is hard to have the “full picture” because things are being added for classes, spells are changing, etc… but there’s this underlining strength of talents that I do not feel are being matched on Paladins.
But lets compare Arms Warriors to Ret Paladins for experiment sake.
ALL talents in Blue are talents placed on optional nodes, meaning you have to choose one or the other.
ALL talents in Red are talents placed on their own nodes, or on a node vs a completely new ability.
Do you see a difference?
Looking at defensives and utility alone…
-
In DF, my warrior has all these talents:
- Defensive Stance
- Impending Victory
- Second Wind
- Stormbolt
- Bounding Stride
- Double Time
-
In DF, my Paladin has to choose between:
- Repentance and Blinding Light
- Healing Hands and Selfless Healer
- Eye for an Eye and Justiciar’s Vengeance
These talents have a level of strength, and being competing talents made classes feel a bit more balanced.
This is very, very evident in the mobility creep happening in DF.
Paladins just don’t have good competing talents, and the ones they did have, are still competing.
22 Likes
Basically as we had thought, they did absolutely nothing for “development” and made a poor job of porting the current class with it’s current restrictions into the new DF format.
So I picked Ret and then Enhance Shaman as a “similar” spec.
The Ret tree has 9 choice nodes, Enhance has 5.
Even with the larger tree for Shaman they still only have 16 in total whilst ret has 15.
For Paladins, yes. 100%.
Most other classes no. They took the SL talent trees and implemented every single talent into the game at the same time. There’s very few, if any, talent choices you have to make in SL, that you also have to make in DF… unless you are a paladin of course. 
2 Likes
This post needs to be seen by all and talked about more. This shows the development mentalities between different parts of the team and what we expected vs what we are getting (or lack there of).
Get someone to post this in the Paladin thread on the Alpha/Beta feedback page if you can’t. Put it to where the team will be looking at feedback if they arent looking here.
4 Likes
It’s tricky because our talents suck, lol. They aren’t as diverse as other classes which is what lead to paladins feeling like they have no “tools” to begin with.
So, it makes sense that Blinding Light and Repentance share an option node, or Selfless Healer and Healing Hands share one as well.
We’re just missing additional tools.
I’ll show this to hopefully give a better example:
DKs have 20 nodes before their first gate.
Warriors have 18 nodes before their first gate.
Paladins have 12.
3/12 are dedicated to Divine Steed alone. 1/4th of our talent options in our first gate, are to a single ability.
I’ve said this before, but if you condense Divine Steed into 1 talent (which it should be) we would have 10 node options before our first gate. TEN.
Our class just has no depth.
Additionally, if you notice row 7, highlighted in Green, the DK and Warriors trees do a good job of being “top heavy.”
This allows you to customize your character in the top of the tree more freely, while narrowing down your build in the end. These are good examples of “intuitive pathing” that Paladins severely lack.
(Its easier to see for Holy Paladins as there should be clear Melee vs Caster builds.)
We just lack content. Fun and interesting abilities that add depth to our characters. Classic Paladins have better trees than DF. =/
Edit:
I don’t show it here, but if you took a look at the Shaman trees, they have 22 nodes before their first gate. Even Havoc and Evoker, 2 spec new classes, both have 16.
Its crazy how hollow Paladins… err Knights, I mean Crusaders… or was it Guardians… feel.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/feedback-paladins/1289849/122
28 Likes
Paladins are doubling down on pubstomping. That’s about it.
2 Likes
Blizzard managed to make all 3 pally specs less fun than live. Color me impressed.
23 Likes
Troll Paladin just saying “hi”
I mean, I guess lol…
We’re just missing nodes to help solidify an underlining theme of the Paladin class. If you were to take the DK tree layout and apply Paladin talents to it, we are missing 7 nodes of content.
It’s even worst when compared to Shaman or Warriors, as they have even more talents to choose from.
This is the DK Tree Skeleton, populated with the Paladin’s talents.
- Where Control Undead is I put Turn Evil.
- Where Death’s Advance is, I put BoF.
- Where AMZ is, I put BoP.
- Etc…
The “?” nodes were just empty, there was nothing left to put there.
6 Likes
Yeah, comparing the first upper talent area with other classes, it’s really sad how far in the dust we are, especially when you look at all the filler we have. We’re clearly in a bad spot unless they plan to tune us purely with numbers to be absolute gods at tanking/healing/damaging - which I DO NOT LIKE, personally - we’re going to be in a bad place when DF releases. I’d rather us have options in our talent tree and utility like many other classes/damage specs, but our own form of it that is useful and good.
11 Likes
I got blasted in a reddit thread for DARING to say that pallies are boring in DF.
11 Likes