Your horde so Druid feral. Generates a lot of threat or Paladin but ur horde. So, druid. Looking at tps it will be Druid or Paladin.
Deep Prot chiming in. DefStance, Defiance, Shield Slam but more than one way to skin cat. My healers appreciate the shield.
Before you think you are saved by a quick AH run to fetch Julie’s Dagger, read this. I like Dots take best:
Good luck
Again get a Druid to start tanking for tps fights.
1 Like
Druids mentioned in that same thread along those lines.
Is there a reason the fury tank dies so easily though?
I think that’s why he doesnt pop reck and death wish and stuff.
He gets deleted as if he is wearing cloth for some reason.
Do your healers stop healing him? Vael is capable of putting out serious burst damage with a fire breath + DoT tick + Melee attack.
Looking at your logs compared to mine, over the same time period your tank takes half the damage that I do.
from 0-45 seconds his DTPS(Damage Taken per Second) is 968,
My DTPS is 1688.
Of course after 45 seconds, he’s 100% going to die as his max HP will start to fall by 5% per second.
Edit: One thing to keep in mind is thanks to the stacking DoT from fire breath, the damage ramps up as the fight goes on, so most damage also comes in at the end of the fight. For example the first 25 seconds, while reckwish is active, I have only 1143 DTPS
Parses are super important in retail.
In Classic they’re literally, actually useless. They only depend on how long the encounter took and getting pink parses usually means your entire guild farmed consumables for 5+ hours.
A Blackwing Lair clear that takes more than five hours is pretty bad, IMHO.
3 Likes
I’m nearly full BiS. Only missing Puissant Cape and Drake Fang Talisman at this point. I’m one of the highest TPS tanks (or bears, at least) in the world.
My suggestion: Fury/Prot. NOTHING can exceed the TPS of a Warrior using cooldowns and consumes. If it were a normal fight where threat matters, Bear might be good, but Vael is definitely a fight to use cooldowns on and the infinite rage makes permanent Heroic Strike possible, making really fast weapons (Alcor’s Sunrazor, Eskhandar’s Right Claw, etc) very good. The longer the fight, the more people that die, and the less time you get to use the debuff on upcoming trash.
Have your Warrior gear properly. FR is worthless. Mitigation is worthless. The healers have infinite mana. They can spam heal the tank with max ranks forever, so reducing damage is not important. All that matters on that fight is threat to increase the raid’s DPS. If your raid has to hold back to avoid pulling aggro, the tank has FAILED on that fight.
3 Likes
DPS warrior should be putting sunders up.
Tanks mostly sunder as a rage dump when revenge and BT are on cooldown
1 Like
TF/Perdition’s are terrible for Vael. They’re too slow. The BiS weapon for tanking Vael is Alcor’s, and Julie’s Dagger is 2nd BiS. Those 2 are BiS for 1 reason and 1 reason only - they’re the fastest attainable weapons.
At the start of the fight he can dual wield to increase his damage output. Later in the fight, if needed, he can swap to the shield to increase his FR & defensive capabilities.
He’s letting some melee attacks go through without getting HS queued first. That’s a big problem.
There are some empty GCDs, or just late GCDs, in that fight. I don’t know what’s going on, but I don’t ever want to see 2 seconds go by between GCDs. Here’s an excerpt:
00:00:09.283 Bloodthirst
00:00:10.995 Sunder (1.7s after)
00:00:12.814 Sunder (1.9s after)
00:00:14.469 Revenge (1.5s after)
00:00:16.033 Bloodthirst (1.6s after)
The GCD is 1.5s. Bloodthirst’s CD is 6 seconds. Because of his late button pushing, his 2nd Bloodthirst happened 7 seconds after the first one.
Another time:
00:00:32.346 Revenge
00:00:37.197 Sunder
Almost a full 5 seconds go by without him spending a single GCD. And during this timeframe, two melee attacks from him got through on the boss, meaning that Heroic Strike wasn’t queued either.
2 Likes
Damn so it’s just not using the right cooldowns as well as not using abilities quickly enough.
No wonder we are pulling threat so easily.
tell him to make Vael specific macros too, where he just mashes heroic strike into every single button he uses, then do as you usually would do 
I think tanks go Bthirst + 3 filler gcd’s on sunder/revenge -> bthirst, with heroic strike being spammed the entire time due to it macro’d into everything else
I don’t know what the explanation is for that. But just a guess, since healing is obviously also a problem here, too, this might be him panicking because his health bar is spiking low and reaching for a health pot/Shield Wall/Last Stand? When a tank is uncomfortable because he doesn’t trust his healers and is worried about dying, it can be a huge distraction from maintaining a proper tight threat rotation. But just a guess. Could be lag, too.
give your tank a TF, have them fury prot and give them 4 seconds at the start of the fight, they should blast past everyone in threat.
Yeah. It’s not like he’s doing one thing terribly. It’s just that he’s imperfect in several different aspects. While each aspect is kind of minor in the bigger sense (maybe 10-20% extra threat each), it doesn’t take a lot of change to generate 50-100% more threat. Tidying up the rotation is one thing, filling the empty GCDs is another, dual wielding when possible is another, equipping a fast dagger is another, and so on.
And on the subject of Fire Resist: it’s the best survival stat for MTing Vael. His bursty damage comes from Fire Breath + its DoT + a melee. The Fire Breath hits for 4k. The DoT stacks and can tick for 4k late in the tanking cycle. It’s likely that the tank takes 8k fire damage in half a second, even without accounting for the melee attack. If the MT is dying, have him equip some FR. He doesn’t need to go full Firemaw and wear 315, just enough to survive that burst. Dropping FR to a more moderate level and wearing threat gear in its place will improve his threat, too.
The above is also why most guilds flask on their tanks in BWL. Vael, Broodlord, and the 3 drakes can all put out some absurd burst damage on the current tank. If he’s trying to survive and pull threat without one, have the guild get one for him. He won’t need to worry about survival as much, meaning he can wear more DPS gear.
Correct.
TF is vastly inferior to Julie’s Dagger, a BOE blue purchasable for like 10g, on Vael.
1 Like
His gear is the problem lol, fury prot should have no issues holding threat, tell your guild to funnel threat gear to him and tell the melee in your guild to suck it up. Bad guilds don’t funnel gear to their tank for threat.
Faster weapon for the tank. He’s got a weapon with attack speed around 2 or so based on the time between heroic strikes. Something like Alcor’s Sunrazer or Distracting Dagger would be best. I’d say the same for your second tank. Faster weapon.
EDIT: Oh, and for crying out loud, give him a fire resist totem.
EDIT 2: Looked at the logs again. You are doing your tanks dirty. Your MT has 0 dedicated healers who are doing nothing but spamming their highest HPS heals on him. They certainly should not be casting chain heal. There are a total of 4 people that cast a heal of any type on the MT and none of them are focused exclusively on him. The second tank only had 2 people cast any sort of heal on him at all. Of course he’s going to be wearing full resist and mitigation gear. And you think it’s a problem with the tank? If it was his idea to not have shaman FR totem and to not have any dedicated healers, then sure, it’s his fault.
Check the other parse linked in this thread and you’ll see how it should be done.
/reports/bJYZ6gmd9CPcGxX7/#fight=5&type=healing
The MT is wearing full threat gear and dual wielding - the difference is he has 3 healers who do nothing but spam heals on him plus a 4th healer who is topping him off. They killed Vael in 30 seconds largely because that tank could focus almost entirely on threat. They had 10 healers, your guild had 12 healers. They devoted 2 paladins to spamming Holy Light on the MT and 1 paladin to spamming Flash of Light on the MT. There is also a priest topping him off with Flash Heal for the first 20 seconds. Your MT stayed alive for over a minute and received 42.8k healing total in that time span. Their MT was only taking damage for 33 seconds and received 33.9k healing from just one of his three dedicated healers. In half the time. When tanks don’t get heals, they have a tendency to die. When that is the case, they have to compensate by wearing gear with more survivability which reduces their threat output.
The only thing I’d really say the tank needs to change is to open with bloodthirst instead of stacking sunder, make sure he’s popping bloodthirst on cooldown (he’s actually not that far off), and to get a 1.3 or 1.4 speed weapon and to throw on more threat gear - which he can’t do with the current healing support he is receiving.
It’s Vael. There is infinite mana. There is no reason you shouldn’t be able to have several healers doing absolutely nothing but have the MT targeted and spam their highest HPS heal button as fast as they possibly can.
Your MT is not Bloodthirsting enough, nor is he using Death Wish.
Ours goes so far as using Recklessness now, but we’re also killing Vael in, like, 30 seconds, since our DPS is insane. He uses Alcor’s MH and Thunderfury OH for tanking it, and he MTs it with at least Rally, ZG, and DM North buffs. (I’ve been getting Songflower to keep up, as of late, since I lack Thunderfury.)
Our MT is doing the same amount of Bloodthirsts in our 31 and 36 second kills as your MT is doing in 1:23. That ability should be used on cooldown, and the highest priority of the GCD abilities, since it’s an infinite rage fight. Arguably, they should also switch to Battle Stance for Executes for more threat, but I’m not sure on the TPS for that vs. Defiance.
GCD priority: Bloodthirst > Revenge > Sunder Armor
One caveat to that. Your hp buffer has to be high enough to actually be healable. If you go crazy with threat gear to the point that your HP dips too low, eventually you’re gonna roll the dice badly and Vael is gonna Firebreath + Dot + Melee crit/crush and instagib you so fast that even an NS heal or lay on hands cant save you because of batching.
Of course, but basically being raid buffed in Bear Form is sufficient for that. Even pre-raid BiS is more than enough for that.
/shrug