Krackr, because there is barely any loot in BWL for warriors anyway other than boots. If they want gear upgrades, they need to PVP.
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Talking about tank DPS? Or tank damage taken?
We can debate this all day (and some people actually have been since I posted this this morning), but at the end of the day, we’re going to end up 8/8 soon and I’ll make Bear tanking shine.
The entire reason for this thread was to point out that Druids aren’t ticking RNG time bombs of getting crit/crushed/splat like these ultra sweaty mathematician simlords like to pretend. In the world where 99% of players live, Bears are absolutely fine, and a good Bear tank (just like a good Warrior tank) will absolutely shine in BWL.
In the simulated world the people in this thread live in, it’s only 99% optimal, not 100% optimal, and that’s ok. I’ll take that 99% straight to KTs face and I encourage others to do the same.
EDIT: You’re talking about tank DPS. Which if you read an excellent mathematician’s post above, Bears get more threat out of their DPS than Warriors because of the way Heroic Strike and Maul work. HS is mostly additive threat (Multiplied by Dstance and talents), where Maul is multiplicative threat (multiplied even further by Bear form and talents). A 1k crit Maul generates more threat than a 1.5k crit HS, roughly speaking. Need the assistance of a mathematician on this one, but you get the point. Bears convert damage to threat at a much higher rate than Warriors.
Hs is not mostly additive. Stop saying that.
The average HS hits for 750. Modified by defensive stance, it does over 1000 threat from damage alone. The additive portion is just an additional 145 threat. A small part of HS is additive.
It also has a few other benefits it turns a white hit into a special attack, which changes the hit table. It also can’t glance. It also removes the DW miss penalty on your OH.
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A 1k Maul generates more threat than a 1k HS. Of course the point is that Bears being lower on overall tank DPS logs doesn’t correlate to lower threat because Bears and Warriors convert damage to threat at different rates.
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Your point?
Warriors can do more Hs than you can do mauls. We also have BT, which does more threat. Then revenge, sunder fillers.
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The only point I was trying to make is to what the guy above me said earlier about 1 Bear tank being in the top 500 of tank damage, and that it correlated with Bears generating less threat. My point was simply that you can’t make that correlation because Bears and Warriors convert damage to threat at different rates.
Oh, well that is a true statement.
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“the average HS hits for 750” stopped reading right there.
Thank you. I am very curious though to see how far I can push this Bear in terms of threat, and once one of our Warriors finishes their TF in a few weeks, they are going DW Fury/Prot (they also have Maladath after that Brood kill), and we’ll have a friendly competition.
Krackr, with world buffs easily.
http
s://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vPpk68FxzjfYBdLK#fight=4&type=damage-done&source=12
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Sephiroth, tell him to use at least a finkles from UBRS MH and use the TF OH on Vael and to spam HS constantly. Pop diamond flask and death wish, and then it should be an interesting competition.
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Oh so that bug is still in effect… whelp.
Which is why it is non-idealized. If he’s running with less than full consumables, buffs, etc, that’s non-idealized. If he has to sub in FR, Armor, and Stamina to stay alive on Vael because of the aforementioned lack of full buffs and consumables, because Vael isn’t fully debuffed, because his Healers panic too much about his survival, or any combination thereof, that is non-idealized to a greater extent.
I get that the difference between 1% Haste on leggings and 20 FR on leggings isn’t some do-or-die decision that any fight is going to hinge upon, but FR is strictly TPS/DPS neutral and 1% Haste is not. Not having 1% Haste is non-ideal.
Well unless your physical EH and fire EH are in such a state that you die between casts of whatever healing is coming your way on an infinite mana fight, there is no reason to overly stack EH on Vael. Further, most Druids, like most Warriors, go for the safer, more secure setup than not. Very few Warriors are rocking 40 sec or less kills of Vael while dual-wielding daggers using leather and mail out of the nearly nineteen thousand Vael Tank Warrior parses.
Which I agree with. Most raids are not going to risk World Buffs on a fight by dropping EH and FR that low.
But my point was that he is pretty much, from gear alone, one piece away from BiS, outside of PvP rewards. And even with PvP rewards his threat won’t be far off the mark. The rest is de minimis fine tuning.
Actually Surf that’s my fault.
In regards to Warcraft logs, miss includes Parry and Dodge. Its broken down if you mouse over it, but that’s what we were referring to.
I could have been clearer, I knew Fasc knew what I was referring to…but this isn’t a personal discussion between the two of us…my bad 
So 14% Parry, 6.5% Dodge, 9% base miss. Hit of course can reduce miss and weapon skill can reduce dodge down to 6% if you are 305, and 5.5% if you are 310 skill.
I simply disagree. Him wearing multiple pieces of heavy EH gear puts him more than one piece away. I know the difference between Molten Belt and Taut Dragonhide Belt isn’t a huge deal breaker, same with 1% Haste vs 8 Str vs 8 Agi vs 20 FR, and so forth. But I’m also looking to squeeze every last drop out and the Druid parses just aren’t that far along that road compared to the Warrior parses.
My Warrior calculator isn’t up to snuff yet to deal with DW, so I can’t really compare apples-to-apples yet. There’s also the fact that Windfury Totem is just not something I’ve put into place yet either because Druids can’t use it and I’m Alliance. So for now I’m just looking at what a Druid can generate when having infinite Rage.
With PvP gear available the set for Phase 3 looks like this:
https://classic.wowhead.com/gear-planner/druid/night-elf/AjwAgUBDWTgCR-SDMn9YR4VARE45BkvEh0BCWTiIS7VON4lKyk4qikBANnwLSYUMS7gNRW4OS86PSG02OpAk6Rwy
- 11,298 Health
- 10,068 Armor
- 2,193 Attack Power
- 44.41% Critical Hit Chance
- 9% Hit Chance
- 1.462 Attack Speed
- 891.02 Average DPS
- 2,233.08 Average TPS
If you can’t get the epic PvP set then your gear looks like this:
https://classic.wowhead.com/gear-planner/druid/night-elf/AjwAgTErWTgCR-SDMn9YR4U5LU45BkvEhzrWWTiIS7VON4lKyk4qijrXNnwLSYUMS-gNRW4OS86PS-w2OpAk6Rwy
- 10,417 Health
- 8,596 Armor
- 2,191 Attack Power
- 41.77% Critical Hit Chance
- 9% Hit Chance
- 1.462 Attack Speed
- 873.33 Average DPS
- 2,185.67 Average TPS
The Druid is in a group with a Warlock with 5/5 Improved Blood Pact, Warrior with 5/5 Improved Battle Shout, Paladin with Fire Resist Aura, and Hunter with Trueshot Aura.
All the standard buffs are up, minus caster only stuff because of the 32 buff limit. Consumables include:
- Flask of the Titans
- Ground Scorpok Assay
- Elixir of the Mongoose
- Elixir of Fortitude
- Elixir of Superior Defense
- Juju Power
- Juju Might
- Gift of Arthas
- Crystal Ward
- Greater Stoneshield Potion
- Blessed Sunfruit
- Rumsey Rum Black Label
- Elemental Sharpening Stone
“World” Buffs include:
- Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer
- Warchief’s Blessing
- Sayge’s Dark Fortune of Damage (10%)
- Mol’dar’s Moxie
- Fengus’ Ferocity
- Songflower Serenade
Debuffs include the boss having no Armor thanks to Sunder, Curse of Recklessness, Faerie Fire, and Annihilator procs all active.
All of this being said, I understand 100% how absurd this kind of stat stacking is because the debuffs aren’t going to be there immediately and the fight is super short and if anything goes wrong then you’re out some of the biggest buffs you can find and so forth. But the tippy-top parses of any class include using all this crazy nonsense to get themselves to the top. There’s a reason why Chrilton’s guild makes use of a Pet Owl for Screech spam so that the Warriors can get away with as much flimsy gear as possible. The same thing would benefit Druids as well.
As far as the average guild is concerned, where Warriors aren’t churning out 1k+ DPS on the regular as your DPS, a Druid can stay in full EH gear and slap on an MCP and be just fine.
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I like the lists Fasc, very thorough 
Your assuming he’s Alliance…ie Kings and Might…he’s not.
I get what your saying with this…and I agree that his crit was low, even factoring in 3% Crit Suppress. However his total miss was excellent.
However Surf’s point is spot on. Bumping crit to 100% for 15s on a sub 1m fight is going to bolster threat. Using Recklessness on a 31s fight for nearly 50% uptime…is going to boost crit rate ALOT!
One of the advantages to Warriors, for both DPS and TPS roles, is timers.
Warriors have them, defensively and offensively, and Bears don’t.
However using those timers allowed DPS classes to easily top 2k DPS…so you have to expect they are going to utilize it for that particular fight.
Right, but even with that accounted for, 81% on Heroic Strike is a very massive increase in baseline crit. That’d mean ~62% base crit which I really doubt anyone is rolling around in.
Oh that I agree with 100%. The advantage of clicky powerspikes cannot be understated. Chrilton also popped the Troll passive along with Mighty Rage Potion and so forth. Druids with Earthstrike will be able to make up some of the gap, but obviously Warriors can use it as well.
Shorter fights also favor super high parses because you don’t need to be very lucky for very long. 30 sec to get a nice string of critical hits massively inflates your apparent output compared to getting that same string in a 60 sec fight.
BTW I think my Armor values are a bit off. I noticed I was improperly removing the Armor from Agility and tacking it back on at the wrong point, so both Druid profiles should have like 400ish more Armor than that. I’ll fix it later.
What’s also underestimated is the full power of Recklessness.
Its not just 100% crit for its duration.
Its 100% uptime on Flurry for its duration.
And with multiplicative Haste between Warchief’s and Flurry…that’s alot of delay reduction.
Just under 1100 DPS in full plate except Edgemasters, in a 31s Vael fight, is pretty impressive for a Warrior.
I’m a huge proponent of Bears. I play one, I tanked on one in Vanilla all through Cata. I love the class.
With that said Warriors have about a 10% threat advantage if they use all the tricks and know what they are doing.
It doesn’t bother me, it is what it is.
Especially because the best for Bear Druids is yet to come
Eh this is less of a surge than you’d think, especially with dual wield, over what a Warrior can normally achieve if they spec Flurry. But yes, you’re right, Flurry rolling the whole time on top of all other speed buffs is a lot. But then again so is a <1.5 swing Bear going Mach 5 with Mauls. MCP is so nice.
NPC specials haven’t been able to crit or crush since early on in actual Vanilla WoW 15 years ago.
See above. NPC abilities can’t crit or crush.
Post a log of a single MS critting.