If you did all 20s both weeks you would almost be top 100 in the world for guardian. The rank 100 bear has a 19 for score. Your argument is awful.
Also somehow ignoring last expansion where they said hunter and warlock were a huge problem and if they nerfed them it would be too much of a detriment to high level play. They most certainly consider the highest keys being completed.
They are paying for those specific experiences - intentionally.
Nobody is paying for bear to be subpar by all measurable metrics.
Just because a couple of forum randos proclaim it is âokâ doesnât make it true. Numbers are what we have to look at.
With any set of numbers, there can be outliers, but that is why you have statistics for mean, average, so on.
Or Blizzard can be better at their job and make class balance better?
To be honest, the major problem with your entire arguments in this thread is that youâre not very bright at all. It is a âyouâ issue" since you seem to not have enough to understand the application of the VIABILITY word in the context EVERYONE else is using. Just look around, you are the the one struggling to understand, and that is not because âyou disagreeâ, it is clear as day that you donât get it.
People are not saying that it is, in the literal term, IMPOSSIBLE to play a bear druid in +20 keys. But anyone with half a brain knows that even if it is possible, the discussion about VIABILITY goes beyond that. Anything with a 1% of chance of happening is âpossibleâ, does not mean it is VIABLE if every other choice goes to 80% or more. That is the context.
What people are saying, showing, providing data, is that Guardian is in such a state that makes no sense compared with others tanks. The entire VIABILITY discussion needs to put the other options in the table, because why would the group pick the thing with the least chance of success, and by such a high margin? You know, most people donât play to lose, unlike you that seems to enjoy being wrongâŚ
No one should âacceptâ bad game designs, poor class balance, or anything that have to do with Blizz doing a poor job, just because you feel like.
My argument is that thereâs a skill gap and people arenât willing to admit it. Argument is valid.
M20 and mythic raiding = high level play
Youâre paying for access to the servers. What you play is a simple choice. If youâre not having fun, play something else. The biggest impact is going to be numbers. Quit playing bears and theyâll see the huge plummet (hopefully). Theyâve already addressed the tanking demographic dominance of Warriors.
And itâs funny because when I present such numbers, Iâm met with âwell in my experienceâ as a rebuttal.
I challenge you to do the maths to balance 38 specs. Itâs a lot more work than you could possibly imagine. Unless you wanna homogenize everything.
Again, the balance break point is 20 keys (and mythic raiding). The larger the gaps grow beyond that point, the less of a concern they really are. Now you go in the opposite direction, and the larger the gaps the lower the key you go, the larger the concern.
Because youâre all using it incorrectly. Youâre trying to use it to mean âgoodâ or âeasyâ. When thatâs not the case. You canât change the definition to fit your narrative. The definition is capable. And it is more than capable at its balancing points. Oils it be a bit better? Yeah definitely. Again, some form of baked in magic mitigation would go a long ways.
See, now youâre using personal feelings and experiences as an arguing point. Up to 20 keys, you can have a hodge pudge of a group and succeed (assuming people know how to play their classes). This is where skill takes over. Bears are entirely viable (read that, capable) of clearing 20 keys. And higher. Bad players are bad players regardless of their class and role.
You not liking something doesnât make it badâŚ.even if you feel like.
First you try to make an excuse for the bad class balance saying it is âvery hardâ.
Next you say it is not bad at all. Itâs just my feelings.
Well how it is about my feelings if the data shows Guardian is far behind? You mean these numbers have feelings? In the end of the day, it is just a very intellectual dishonest person showing her best self.
No, viability does not mean what is possible. The funny thing is that a 10-year-old kid would have enough to understand the context of the word viability in this situation. You donât.
From a mythic raid perspective that some people are using, your guild is likely not going to want 4 of the 20 slots to be druids. With resto, feral and balance all being A tier or better it leaves little room for Guardian to be represented in mythic raiding. Raids need a Warrior, Monk, DH, Druid, Mage, Warlock, Priest, and Shaman - thatâs 8 slots of a 20 man raid. Most would argue more PIs is better than more Innervates, so 2 priests at least. Then comes raid CDs, most would argue more warriors/DKs (as DPS) would be better than more druids. So add at least 1 of those to your raid. Thatâs 10 of the 20 slots taken. In the same vein why bring a tank that canât help the whole raid (Warrior/DK)?
With 10 slots left to fill, youâll probably want an Evoker for mobility reset (11). A holy paladin for tank healing (12). Resto Druid / Prevoker / mw for output healing (13). Need a hybrid to flex from heals to DPS for fights that need 3 healers or 4 - usually a shaman or evoker. (14).
6 Slots left for DPS and guilds either lean into windfury or more ranged.
Point here is, Guardian is completely VIABLE, but as outlined, it doesnât bring anything to help the raid (Commanding Shout / AMZ). The viability argument is a poor one when itâs the utility that is missing in mythic raids.
In Mythic + itâs definitely viable as well. When youâre doing +20s there comes a point for all tanks to kite - the damage after CDs is simply too high to heal or mitigate. Having said that, bear is the only tank that can do a lot of its damage while kiting, so in theory its actually the best kiting tank.
Magic damage taken is a valid argument, however, bear is meant to take damage not mitigate it. IRL, marksmen use âbearsâ as a way to gauge loads and caliber, thereâs even a phrase âloaded for bearâ. So i think from a design stand point, magic damage is that âloaded for bearâ function that actually makes sense. If anything, i think they should keep it as is, however, apply an enrage effect when they take physical damage to increase their damage - as IRL, pissing off a bear with too weak of a caliber would result in âbad news bears, for all who careâ.
2 entirely different things. Class balance isnât easy. I never said class balance was good. I said it wasnât easy without homogenization.
And my statement of you not liking something doesnât make it bad is also true. You may not like country music. Doesnât make country music bad though.
My argument has always been: just because you canât do it doesnât mean itâs not âviableâ. Yeah Bears could use help. Never denied that. But I am against âeverything must be DH level easy/goodâ.
Power rankings shift all the time. No king reigns forever. You can play what you like through thick and thin and become good with it and do well, or if you prefer DH level easy/good, thereâs 37 other specs to choose from in the game. Little bit of everything for everyone.
Have Guardians not cleared Mythic raids nor m20s? OhâŚthey have. Guess theyâre not behind. That is the finish line the devs put in place. If you wanna continue past that finish line, thatâs fine. But itâs not dev supported.
It actually does. The definition of viable is the chance to succeed and being capable lol itâs not âwhat I think is good and easyâ as you keep trying to make it out to be.
Viable means being able to do the content it was designed to do. Which it is. They donât tune and balance their fame with the intention of classes failing to succeed at the content they created.
Add control / AoE interrupt / raid speed boost / off healing / increased DPS on tank swaps / Brez.
One would argue more DPS > more utility.
As such, they need to design bears to do so. They used to have the health pools for this to ring true. But itâs not the case any more
Grizzle is still going at this is he? I love the constantly moving goal posts:
My argument has always been: just because you canât do it doesnât mean itâs not âviableâ. Yeah Bears could use help. Never denied that. But I am against âeverything must be DH level easy/goodâ.
And of course the ever evolving definition of âviableâ.
So youâre unable to comprehend things you read. Got it. My stance had never changed. Nice try though
Yeah itâs amazing how you guys change it from post to post and yet I am the only one whoâs stayed consistent with the definition.
No one ever said that. That was not the definition of âViableâ by anyone in this thread, so youâre just using a straw man fallacy, and Iâm not even surprisedâŚ
That is just a stupid statement. Obvious they can be behind even if someone at some point with some ILVL did finish.
How can it be hard for you to understand that a class that need a specific composition, very specific gear and power, doing something in a very specific way, is behind other classes that donât need any of that? I mean, I have seen people with low IQ, but youâre on a level that I believe you got to be trollingâŚ
No, it means far more than that, specially in the context of class balance and MMORPGs. Just please donât ever work with games, you donât have enough and would be terrible. A player may manage to finish content using a very specific strategy, composition, power level, etc. If the Guardian is the only tank that requires such preparation while others donât, it means it is not viable. It is not viable with other compositions. It is not viable without overgear⌠Etc.
Your argument is a collection of superficial thoughts.
Tank DPS in a mythic raid setting isnât really that great. I mean, sure itâs part of the total dps, but itâs not comparable to AMZ or Commanding Shout. The pvp talent âGrove Protectionâ would fit what is needed.
Youâre not wrong. Bears arenât meant to block or parry (not even really dodge). They are mean to take it and keep taking it, consistently the same amount of healing required every attack. Ignore pain should have been given to bears, it actually makes sense for them. Ironfur, seems like it would fit brewmaster better. Bears should have the same amount of armor always with a GRAND amount of HP. Obviously thatâs thatâs not going to change. HP does usually get better as more mastery becomes available.
Go back and read all those âwell in my experienceâ posts.
So they are viable is what youâre saying. Glad you finally agree. Yeah, not all tanks are built equal. But theyâre all built to complete the content that was designed.
But Guardian Druids do not need 418 ilvl to complete m20 and mythic raids. Youâre using hyperboles and itâs not a good argument.
It is viable with other compositions. Top 100 bears run with all sorts of compositions. And I already touched on the over gearing thing. Again, hyperbolic arguments are not good arguments.
Well they used to be the dodge tank. High Crit meant high dodge and less damage taken in. I think that got nerfed a few expansions back though.
And I think Iron Fur fits them. It was their physical damage mitigation (and a good one at that) while their giant health pools was their magic mitigation. They used to be damage sponges, and I think going off of that for a future magic mitigation type would be pretty neat. How theyâd implement that though, while being something new and not taken from another class is beyond me
Never said that, just you being intellectual dishonest.
Never said that, just you being intellectual dishonest, again.
That is not how you do it, to prove that bears are viable with any comp and without overgear, you need to provide data. But the data is already disproving you.
Just think about it for a secondâŚ
There is someone online who needs to explain to you that IF guardian needs to have more gear than the other tanks to complete the same content, it means it is not viable. I mean this is literally the most basic kind of syllogism⌠I mean it, this is the kind of philosophy we teach KIDS at school and youâre failing.
Here, lets go:
A) Guardian needs more gear than other tanks to do content X.
B) Without more gear than the other tanks, Guardians canât do content X.
C) So, guardians need overgear to do content, else theyâre not viable.
Perhaps painting will make it easy for you?
Theyâre viable⌠well ok viable but not in the highest content⌠ok well not in the content that matters⌠ok well not in the content that matters to me⌠ok well maybe not viable but itâs not that badâŚ
I can Lick 30 Tigers Today?
Fiat (bear) vs Ferrari (warrior) is the argument.
Both will get you from point A to point B.
Problem is everyone is looking at the Ferrari like itâs the only option or the standard option. The Fiat is like, what the hell man why donât we have a 12 cylinder?
They are different, and meant to be. Problem is the âFerrariâ is more like a fighter jet and the âFiatâ is stuck in 1899.
Bear needs âGrove Protectionâ (pvp talent) to be more raid desirable and more Armor or HP (or both) to be more M+ desirable.
Youâre arguing that Guardian isnât viable compared to other tanks. The fact they are designed to complete the content at hand is just you being intellectually dishonest. See how that works? I can do it too
You hinted at it lol come on. Talking about being intellectually dishonest.
So youâre telling me that all these bears are running the same 418 gear, and the same healer and DPS ?
So youâre saying that the only viable tank is a Prot Warrior as they require the least to do the most. And anything that cannot replicate it exactly, is not viable because it requires more gear to do the same thing.
You understand how ridiculous that sounds seeing as there is always going to be a number one, a number two, a number three so on and so forth itâs how power rankings work. But Iâm sure youâll add a stipulation to this now.
Can be said about every tank thatâs not a Warrior.
Can be said about any tank outside of Warrior.
How do Guardians cleae 20s and mythic raids without getting the gear that drops from 20s and mythic raids first in order to do said 20s and mythic raids?? Youâre not making much sense.
But desirable =/= viable
As a Guardian main who has a near 2600 IO I can tell you that we are in trouble. Doing 19+ keys was extremely challenging before that patch and far worse after. Recently I decided to try my warrior to have a better comparison to my druid when it comes to tanking. I nearly laughed the entire time at how easy protection warriors have it. The sheer ability to mitigate damage while still doing respectable damage was unbelievable. Its at times like these I wonder who is in charge of Blizzards quality control as there is no way someone said âHey Guardian Druids are on par with other tanksâ. There is just no way. Whatâs worse is that it doesnât appear Blizzard even wants to acknowledge this blunder as they have not even spoke to their constituents. I too might end up having to change classes if I wish to do relevant content for the foreseeable future.
Exactly that.
Iâm arguing what viable means in the context of class balance in a MMORPG. You love to simplify everything, because you can only deal with simple logic. All the data shows that Guardians as it stands are not viable. You canât argue numbers.
What do you mean when you say guardians are perfect viable?
You mean that Guardians can do the content they were design to do, so theyâre viable and everything is fine. See? I actually understand your point, but you are WRONG. The problem is that you keep running in circles because you canât understand other peopleâs points. Itâs not that you donât agree, it is that your brain donât understand what others are saying.
So what you believe people are saying when they state that guardians right now are not viable?
You believe people are saying that it is harder to play guardian than it is to play others tanks, therefore it is not viable. You will keep running in circles because this false logic is the only thing your brain understood.
To discuss with you is a waste of time, you canât comprehend otherâs thoughts, you will keep the discussion running in circles. The only reason Iâm doing it is that you keep this thread alive bumping it, so MAYBE it will help Blizz to understand the issue.
What are people actually telling you?
People are saying that Guardian is not viable to do some content that they should be able to do, without being overgeared or with some very good comps, or in the hands of the best of the world. It should not be needed to say that Blizz should not design the class based on what the best of the world can do, but even if they do so, why would this logic be applied only to Guardians?
When people come to you and say âhey my warrior can do it with 390 ILVL, but my Guardian dies all the timeâ, you can reply these people with âhey get good, 6 people in the entire world has manage so it is possibleâ. By all means, the affirmation is not wrong, but that does not means it is a good game design, that does not say anything about VIABILITY of the class in a MMORPG context.
In the end of the day, youâre just playing dumb with the word viability. That is all. Take everything you said in this entire thread, it is you wanting to use the term âviabilityâ implying that if SOMEONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD MANAGE TO DO IT, IT IS VIABLE AND EVERYTHING IS FINE. Just⌠Dumb thoughts.