This is a terrible argument. “Good enough” should never be the metric used for balancing. There’s plenty of people who DO achieve the highest potential of any given spec, and it does matter to them even if it doesn’t matter to you. The way things stand currently, bear will probably not be capable of even pushing the highest keys required for max ilvl reward in your vault.
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That statement could be used anywhere. Just tell me, let’s say just this patch, how many keys you did every week? How long on average you need to wait before get invited? Has anyone told you “bears suck dude” after a wipe? How many times you said to yourself “so close, if I were a bdk I’ll get this boss”? There are less than 0.01% ppl are good enough to be able to blame the spec’s limits, so pretty much class balancing is only for the 0.01%?
As you said the game is not out yet. I sincerely hope on the day it launched, I can say “I was wrong, they know how to design a game”.
Yeah, he is.
He’s been saying this all summer.
I called him out on it and he made a half assed apology, but now he’s right back at it again.
Its wild.
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Agree, I’m racist for just assuming all posters are human beings, which might not be true. I’ll just stop here, feel free to report me. It’s no difference if I can post here or not.
I think what I’m saying is being lost. I’ll try and rephrase. Keep in mind, this is in the context of a reply to the OP and thread topic; in that the question ‘why should I bother playing guardian’ with the preface of knowing he’s been loyal to the spec for the past 15 years.
Ok so to the reply. I’m of course not insinuating to forgo further balancing just because it’s “good enough.” What I am trying to get across, as a mentality, is that balance, true balance is not possible. There will always be a best, and a worst. I don’t think you don’t know this but let me explain its relevance a bit.
In a game like this, let’s take M+ for example, (you could use rifts in D3 the same way) there’s no limit to how far you can push a key, or rift. It’s limited by the aforementioned limits a player is capable of on their class, and the class(es) themselves. Because there’s no direct ceiling (besides top vault rewards), this means that no matter how close balance is, the absolute best will always shine as being able to do that one extra key, that one extra rift, kill the boss just that much faster, etc. You can’t escape this.
This creates the community “meta” as you’re well aware I’m sure. Everyone flocks to see the best performing spec and deems all others as unviable. However unless pushing the absolute limits of the game, it’s largely irrelevant. Now of course this does not mean balancing only affects the top .1%. If a spec is better or easier to play, it is so, comparatively, at all skill levels. But again, that really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme unless it’s so egregiously bad that it literally becomes unviable.
I don’t know if guardian feels like that now but I highly doubt this will be the case. It may not be the best but I’m sure it will be more than capable. Not to mention there’s a lot of factors that determine how good a tank is. It’s not just damage. Is not even just efficacy of taking damage. It could be utility or any number of factors. All I’m saying is wait and see.
No, see above. And I don’t do keys. I arena.
It’s just weird… like clearly it was said in a way that implies people that fill the “diversity role” are incompetent. Those roles are never white individuals typically so… yeah. And then ironically he seems to potentially be of a different ethnicity. The whole thing confuses me.
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Absolutely, I’d never dispute this. The problem is, currently, the “best” is nearly DOUBLE the power in terms of HPS, DPS, and general survivability compared to bear. That’s the problem.
It does. At least, for me it does. I struggled my way through a handful of keys as bear, the same keys doing the same pulls on warrior, brew and VDH. On the other tanks, not only did we time it, but I had absolutely no survivability, threat, or DPS issues at all.
To be fair, each group was with a completely different set of players, so that plays a factor. But like I said, I didn’t do just a single bear key. I did several, and it was bad in all of them.
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Is the best also just as ahead as the second place tank? What does the overall spread look like? I just ask because it could be an outlier spec over performing. I of course am not rhetorically asking, I just don’t know. I’d also want to make sure this isn’t hyperbole. Double the damage and survivability all things considered is a strong accusation and if true, I agree is a problem.
This more or less continues the same conversation but this anecdote is surely more “proof” than my personal experience (which is naught). However I do ask, is this perhaps due to not using an “optimal” build? That is perhaps the ideal set up for bears is more complicated or not known yet? Or are you just as familiar on bear as those other specs?
Perhaps not to offend but are there any other voices of well known, proven great guardian players in that upper echelon that mimic these thoughts?
I mean ultimately despite my points I’ve made in this thread, there of course is an allowed variance in my opinion and “half” of other tanks surely isn’t acceptable if that is indeed true. I mean in one metric such as damage, that’s fine if it makes up for it in other areas.
To the best of my knowledge, prot warrior, brewmaster, and VDH are all relatively close in how well they’re performing. However, it’s hard to say exactly since they’re good at different things. A VDH isn’t going to be able to face tank as long as a prot warrior, for example. But end of run numbers, yeah they’re all relatively close to twice the numbers bear can put out. I believe (genuinely don’t remember, someone can correct me if I’m wrong) that prot pally is the closest to bear in terms of performance, and even it does approximately 55% more dps than bear does.
I would say I’m just as familiar on bear as the other tanks I played. The build I’m running on mine is generally accepted as “the way to go” currently. All of the galactic guardian talents with all 3 berserk talents, plus incarn and circle of life and death. I think one spot that may vary from bear to bear is whether you take the boomy path on the core druid tree, or the resto path. Resto path will net you almost 10% more healing, which isn’t nothing. Boomy path increases your range on trash by 6 yards I think. I opted for larger thrashes.
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Positive? Keep bringing up dps again but forgetting dps, every other tank you’re saying is literally twice as hard to kill as a bear? If left alone for instance with no healer they’d all last twice as long?
When you are dealing with PUGs You will run into this issue in every aspect of the game whether its Raids/Mythics/PVP. Its not just limited to Ferals, nor RBGS. BM hunters get the same looks etc when they enter RBGS. We have Limited spots, and when making groups people are always going to gravitate to the spec’s which will better chances of success.
Feral falls into the melee category, which IMO is tougher then Casters because Rogue/Warr/Ret/DH/DK are just so much stronger options.
I’m going to assume you don’t mean if left alone, standing there doing actually nothing, other tanks take twice as long to die. Operating under that assumption, without a healer left to their own devices only, yes the other tanks can survive significantly longer staying in the fight. I would put it at around twice as long. Once you go through both frenzied regen charges, you’ve got nothing left to keep you alive. Ursocs isn’t enough to survive anymore, moonfire does not do damage quickly enough to keep you topped up, and barkskins barrier (if you take that talent) is pitifully small.
They have survival instincts too yes? I don’t mean literally nothing, I just meant if they were to solo a hard hitting enemy or group/pull, utilizing all available tools, how effective are they?
I guess I’m just having doubts that they’re literally half as effective at actual tanking than every other tank. Just seems hyperbolic. Their damage has never been their standout feature but as a whole I’m sure they’ll be fine.
Yeah they will be fine for solo content,low keys and lfr
They will be able to do everything man. Relax and have faith.
The last 6 years of being ignored as a spec doesn’t give me any faith. They will be “fine” but we deserve better than fine. We right now as it stands are a F tier tank. I would love to be proven wrong.
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I believe bear will still be F tier in DF, at least in 10.0. If you have to find a bright side, bear is still more capable than its dev team.
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Dude, if you feel any psychological stress at all playing this game or any other, stop playing immediately and do something else with your time. You are in too deep.
I never said that at all. Snipping 5 words from a post is impressive and all, but I suggest you read all of it.
Playing games induces stress of all kinds, and is inherent for any game. Its the basic function of the human brain to engage in varying levels of stress and release for satisfaction.
And, counter to your statement, if one immediately stopped playing a game as soon as stress was introduced, we wouldnt have any games on planet earth.
Speak for yourself. Games dont stress me in the slightest and I’d take my own advice if i ever did. It’s antithetical to the reason i play games in the first place
Lol, that might be a bad news for the game. Seems you think game is used to relax, which a lot of ppl do think so. But the purpose of game has never been relaxing ppl, the purpose is to kill time. Game is an art, like any other kinds of art, the key is to manipulate players’ motion flow. Just like if you say I don’t feel any stress when watching a movie, that might not be a compliment of the movie.