I think that was kinda OP’s point? That Baine and belf leader show same traits.
No wonder Lorty saw Baine as best in Horde.
Magister Hathorel: Have you forgotten the purge of Dalaran, murderer? Today, the Sunreavers will be avenged.
Jaina: Then your vendetta is with me, and me alone!
Magister Hathorel: No! You will watch your friends die–just as I did!
Wow, he sure seems pretty pissed about “4 people” dying.
I think more died in the purge but that line of dialogue isn’t the proof of it. Let’s say it was just 4, and those 4 were his dear friends. Then yes, he would still be pretty mad. Also in the scenario, the pc, baine, thrall, and saurfang add up to 4 people after jaina.
Well, let’s see. There were the 5 guards she personally murdered. Then all the people she was shown murdering in the street - it has been claimed that this was a bug but Blizzard never fixed it so the canonical status is up for grabs. There are the people the PC murders. There’s at least one guy who is not only murdered but fed alive to a shark. There seems to be a lot of other violence happening.
And then, of course, sorting people according to ethnicity, social group, ideology, etc., and imprisoning or deporting “undesirables” is the textbook definition of social cleansing.
Blizzard literally named it “The Purge of Dalaran.” They weren’t trying to be subtle.
Edit: Here’s a definition for you: “At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of a population from a given territory.”
Edit 2: And to the inevitable objection that Blood Elves are not ethnically distinct from High Elves, which is true, note that the term “ethnic cleansing” is acknowledged is a misnomer; it generally applies to the forced removal of a specific population group, whether that group is defined in terms of ethnicity, religion, political ideology, or other. For example, N*zi ethnic cleansing targeted ethnic groups, political groups, religious groups, people with disabilities, and people of non-preferred sexual orientation.
Is it not enough that Baine, Thrall and Lor’themar are sitting around in Orgrimmar singing Kumbaya all day long? You need them to “love” all the races of the Horde as well? They all need to get along and be super-best-friends? We’re all Tink-Tink and Zappy-Boi now?
I can’t help but wonder how much of this Blizzard was being subtle about and how much clueless. I mean, after killing-imprisoning BE shopkeepers for the actions of an unknown thief, she proclaims that without a hint of irony? But, since they themselves don’t seem to be able to make that sort of connection in Jaina’s redemption arc, I have to go with clueless.
I took that to mean she meant to let the rest of the rescuers go and deal with her 1v1.
Yes.jpg picture meme
Lol if jaina killed my mother and only my mother yeah I would call her a murderer too
if blizzard said it was a bug, then no its not up for grabs.
weird how the bug affected the text of the quest telling you to murder people…
and there’s npcs talking about all the blood elves she killed…
The people that violently resisted arrest to the point of dying to the PC?
That was verassa not jaina can you even tell what different women look like?
Ah yes, the inherently horrible crime of pulling money out of your bank and defending your home when violent murderers break into it.
I think its ok for the police to break into terrorists homes to take them into prison
“You’re under arrest for suspected treason.”
Attacks the police
The SC weren’t the police, and the idea of thinking it’s okay to kill someone on suspicion of being a terrorist based solely on their race is an incredibly horrible thing.
The Purge is a great example of the playerbase not being able to actually handle morally grey writing, really morally grey writing, in the few times that Blizzard actually does it. It’s no wonder they need to be hamfisted one way or another.
Jaina randomly killing civilians is a bug, it has been said as such, but going after every Blood Elf in the city to imprison them was on her command, and thus any deaths during this would fall on her and Vereesa, this much is entirely true. So yes, Jaina is responsible for any deaths during the so-called Purge. That said, while any number is pretty not great, the deaths couldn’t have been too egregious, since all the blood elf NPCs from Wrath are right back there during Legion, and even pre-Legion during the patch, when it was under Jaina’s command still.
In context, the Purge of Dalaran is basically the only actually morally grey thing Blizzard has ever written. This is mere months after Theramore has been wiped off the face of existence in EVERY reality, and when the Divine Bell was stolen, there was complete and total evidence that some of the Sunreavers had helped to make that happen, using Dalaran’s portal network. On her watch, in fact, because she let her guard down.
Imagine then, what that could have resulted in? Dalaran’s portals are linked to every major city, and an unknown number of Sunreavers had used that to put a powerful magical weapon right into the hands of the Horde, a Horde that had used a mana bomb in recent months and could very well want to do so again. Let’s be clear, the only reason the Sunreavers didn’t become outright villains is because Anduin stopped Garrosh. If he hadn’t? It could have spelled the end of the war, and anyone who stood against the Horde Garrosh envisioned.
The Purge is morally grey because the circumstances made it impossible to do anything else, in the face of the possible consequences for doing nothing or moving too slowly. In context, we’re talking the potential deaths of thousands, hundreds of thousands. Jaina gets fragged for it, but what about Lore’themar? Those are his people, actively working to violate Dalaran’s neutrality, yet he knew nothing. If Garrosh had made his supersoldiers with the Bell, or used the Sunreaver agents to sneak a mana bomb into Stormwind, what would he have said, “Oops.”? Varian chiding Jaina because he was planning on having the Blood Elves join the Horde is completely inane, because it was a group of blood elves who actively tried to help the Horde turn the tide.
While I don’t agree that is was impossible to do anything else (Ethnic Cleansing is never the only choice), I have to say that I agree with the general sentiment.
I don’t have any problem with the Purge as a story. I do have a problem with white washing such actions as “OK”. That is one thing that I don’t like in switching to Alliance.
The one quest I refused to do was an Alliance quest. The NPC’s son had been killed in an attack on a fort orchestrated by a Goblin. So the PC is suppose to run out an kill some minors who had nothing to do with it for revenge.
I will not run a character who does such things.
(Observation): “Murder,” doesn’t seem to be quite the correct word. The Alliance PC doesn’t attack defenseless helpless people, but pacifies hostile individuals and forces.
(Commentary): So when do we go after Lor’themar for the, ‘Ethnic Cleansing,’ of the High Elves and the Void Elves? When does the Alliance get an apology for that? Perhaps he should make an apology before Jaina, since he seems to have more to apologize for.
(Query): Or perhaps we accept that Lor’themar’s actions were justified the same way as Jaina’s were; a matter of national security?