Your responses bore me.
This will be my last reply to you. Cheers.
All of Blizzard’s stories are about individual characters rather than factions or races a whole. That’s why people project the race or faction on the actions of one hero.
Your tired trope of absolving the Alliance of their errs by saying “but see what the Horde did way over there?? It means we’re innocent!!”
Your over-generalizations bore me.
Your inability to answer simple questions bore me.
Your conflagration of the actions of a few into the guilt of all bores me.
Your dishonesty in arguments bore me.
You bore me. But not so much I can’t respond to you.
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Except in this case the Horde is currently following a Horde leader that has historically been one of THE WORST representatives of Faction. Hell, Sylvanas is not even a good representative of her own Forsaken (and it is sort of ironic that conceptually, if not functionally, Blightcaller actually makes for a better rep). Its part of the reason I actually had a pretty strong rage-quit moment back in Legion, because as soon as I saw her story in Stormheim I knew EXACTLY why Blizz killed Vol’jin and made her Warchief (she was still on her damned story arc from “Edgier of Night”, and she’d serve as a catalyst for future conflict between the factions).
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Nathanos is way edgier than she is. I think she fits perfectly what the Forsaken are. At least my impression of them, quests in Western Plaguelands come to mind or the Silverpine quests or the Hillsbrad quests.
If anything I would say she is pretty tame compared to regular forsaken.
Oh come on if we just changed her dialogue a little by replacing the “This is a war to end all wars” with “Strenght and Honor we will defeat the Alliance weaklings”
Would be 10/10 typical Orc Warchief dialogue.
Then you know little about the Forsaken as a concept, nor do I think you really care to (just as you don’t seem to care about the Horde a whole). Your bias clearly heavily lies with the NEs (and I’ll freely admit that mine does not. For several reasons that I will not go into, I find their LORE fascinating, but their stories very boring … and I played them for years almost exclusively).
Unlike Sylvanas, Nathanos actually WAS a citizen and Champion of Lordaeron; as a result (again, unlike Sylvanas) Nathanos actually WAS betrayed fundamentally by the Alliance (when SI:7 attempted to assassinate him); and thus (again, unlike her) his anger at them is genuine and justified. Hell, unlike Sylvanas … in his own way, he actually seems to care for the Forsaken as a people (without all the deliberate ambiguity that has always surrounded Sylvie’s form of “care/value”). His outburst at her in “Before the Storm” shows his horror of (at the very least) her turning her actions against the Forsaken.
Hell … Sylvie wasn’t even really Forsaken by her own family members like most of the Forsaken people’s are. For goodness sake, the LEAD reason that she’s not getting to know her nephews RIGHT NOW is because of her own trash personality and motives. She would be BFFs with Vareesa already by now if not for her desperate need for control (and her apparent total inability to care for (or “love”) those she is unable to have full authority over). Thus, due to all of these factors, she is an absolutely TRASH representative of the Forsaken as a people (the ex-humans especially, and even likely many of her own undead elves).
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it seems most of your arguments are about the origins of these characters rather than what they actually do.
Believe it or not I don’t play just one character. Horde players poisoning farmers to turn them into forsaken is not the kind of thing Sylvanas would do?
Do you have any examples of how Forsaken as a people are so inherently different than Sylvanas in the game?
Besides she being a high elf?
Do you have any examples in the game? I admit I tend to not read wow books for a long time now.
Plot seems to go nowhere and introduced characters exist solely to die by the end of the book. The writing is not that great either, I hardly find myself going past the first 50 pages before giving up.
Its just not worth the money.
I can buy better books for the same price.
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Alright, fair enough, but do you realize that most people on the story forum are actually lore nerds who read almost everything warcraft related?
So, when we are discussing something it is at least expected some level of knowledge or understanding of the characters or the topic being discussed.
this is a lesson that i learned.
like, wow books you like it or not are canon, and these books are what often offer us deep insight into all these characters and why they act the way they do.
So tell me, how can you say that you know what sylvanas represents to the forsakens when you openly admit that you don’t even read the books?
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The storytelling in BfA is clunky; rushed; and half-baked … and attempting to show nuance without the time investment necissary to pull it off. This is ESPECIALLY apparent in Saurfang’s arc in BfA; and is the living legacy of Baine as a character (where the majority of his motives and convictions are locked within books like “As Our Father’s Before Us” and “War Crimes”).
The only real example I have for Nathanos’ behavior in BfA is that there was a shocking lack of Forsaken on the boats going down in Naz’jatar (despite there being primarily Zandalari and Forsaken Naval vessels involved in that chase); as well as a single “Stay-A-While” and listen where Garona questions why it seems his rage and motives at the Alliance are not exclusively driven by his loyalty to his Queen; and finally (very debatable) his strangely sombre, uncharacteristically quiet reaction when Sylvanas tasked him in firing the shot to destroy HIS home.
Outside of that, the small fractures (and changes) in Nathanos’ character arc almost exclusively occur within the short-stories and books. For whatever reason, in books like Dark Mirror; Before the Storm; and even (just a moment) in a Good War … Blizz is showing small fractures in Sylvie’s control over him (even if, thus far, he’s ultimately followed to her orders). Whether this goes anywhere depends on whether Blizz intends for Sylvie to betray the Forsaken in some catastrophic way; but Nathanos’ just being all over the place in BfA (and having fairly significant plot armor) would make a whole lot more sense if he’s being built up as her replacement.
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Because it seems the game reigns supreme.
We could read a book about how cultists started a war but a few years later it wasn’t actually those cultists, it was garrosh all along.
Not only are they terrible works of fiction, they aren’t even consistent nor permanent. See Me’dan or whatever his name was.
So I give the game more authority when it comes to the story and if Droite is right maybe I missed something so I should go and check it out in the game.
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I understand. I appreciate the nuances you add here but from my PoV I see Sylvanas do something.
And you tell me this is all wrong and this is not what forsaken or the Horde (to a lesser degree) about.
But I think to myself all those forsaken specific quests that I did and find those statements inaccurate. It seems in the game the forsaken kind of mirror Sylvanas’ actions before BFA and after it.
And like it or not those are canon too despite what is written in a book.
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The outside media has long reigned supreme over the game. Chronicles retconned plenty of facts given in-game, just as to name the biggest example. This isn’t new, this isn’t a fresh take. The in-game events are subject to confirmation in the novels, comics and short stories.
While a bad character and poorly written, he isn’t an example of the game taking precedence. Rather, events from that story that make absolutely no sense have since been added to the game; Garona is half-draenie, not half-human. Even if she hasn’t a single draenie feature. This came from the Me’dan story.
Caila’s entire existence is due to outside media. Illidan’s BC story was heavily retconned in outside media prior to Legion, then directly used in Legion. I can go on, and on, and on with examples.
The game follows the lead set by the books. Not the other way around. Whether we like it or not.
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Here’s the thing about Sylvanas, she is a character that does not translate that well into a game format, because as she has been portrayed FOR YEARS she is a character that will do and say one thing (and be thinking something completely different). The only real insights we really get into her true motives are in the books, where we get access to her internal thought processes and intents.
This is no more apparent than in “Edge of Night”; where it portrays Sylvie’s relationship with her Forsaken as truly something awful (and “A Good War” goes a long way in showing that this War is unlikely to be in the Horde’s best interest). These are elements of her personality and character that you don’t get in the game (because, even when the writing IS decent … you don’t get access to whats going on in her head … which is EXTREMELY important for her).
If you’re unwilling to even read the NE related books (and have trouble doing so), a race you are clearly EXTREMELY passionate about; then you are FAR less likely to read those unrelated to them (especially those of the Horde). So … I’m not sure what to tell you about your interpretations about the Horde and Sylvanas, when your basing them off of incomplete information?
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No is not, lol, blizzard literally said that books are canon.
you know, word of god.
Game content can also be retconed. just look at illidan, lol.
in BC he was a complete maniac.
blizzard never had actually incredible writting, the best thing they could do was arthas story and only because they were inspired by already done stories see:anakin.
story is just not their best work,sadly.
So no, is not consistent, nothing in wow lore really is because someone need a new raid tier so they have to write the story around that and not the other way around.
so… you actually think that sylvanas burning teldrassil was just because a random elf taunted her?
Are you actually okay with how tyrande dealed with the situation? (hs to stormwind)
do you even know how the war of thorns happened?
Because i can tell you now, that their ingame representation was pure THRASH.
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That is a fair point.
But it doesn’t negate what actually happens in the game.
Just because a character is “mad” or “sad” or has an argument doesn’t just turn the whole story on its head.
Woah there cowboy. What gave you that idea? Sure I like them and I find their whole fallen civilization (especially in legion) cool… it is not a fanaticism you seem to imply.
I am just basing them on in-game information. That is all.
Sure they are. Until they are inconvenient to the game and we retcon it.
Only because we saw things from our perspective.
Yes. Kinda.
No.
Yes. I read the web novellas since they were free.
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this is also true for the game, you know that, right?
For now, the chronicles series are the cannon origin of the universe.
if blizzard tomorrow says in a single line of dialog that the universe was created by murky, then that will be the origin of the wow universe, as for today? chronicles.
hum no, illidan was completely rewritten in legion.
is not a matter of perspective, is a fact.
let me ask you this question, what version do you prefer, in game or the novel representation?
Game. Because I ‘physically’ saw it happen.
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Fair enough. However, the functionalist in me see’s several issues that will need to be addressed. 1) Sylvanas has always been a strange leader for the Forsaken, and one that has sort of perpetuated the “Using the Primitive Races of the Horde” issue; and: 2) Sylvanas is VERY unlikely to remain a part of the Horde at the end of BfA (and the Forsaken can not go down with her).
So … the solution does seem to be Blightcaller atm (and to a supporting degree, Voss). Blizzard would not be going to the effort of emphasizing cracks forming in his loyalty to her (no matter how small they may be atm) if they did not intend to use that “Chekov’s Gun” at some point. If they just intended to have him go off with Sylvie, then they could have “prettied” him up without the consequences of him feeling sensations and emotions that he hasn’t since he died.
Long story short, there is a at least palatable character underneath that die-hard Sylvanas fanboy in Nathanos; and since she certainly is not the same woman he worshiped in life, he really does not remain the man he was either. He “could” make for a pretty good replacement for her as a Racial Faction Leader (and if Voss was his support the Forsaken would be in OK shape).
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then you don’t understand delaryn’s character,why tyrande did the things she did, how the horde even managed to do it.
How some characters or their population think, this is vital for the worldbuiding.
Ignoring all of this simply because “is not ingame” is simply wrong.
going back to the original point, many forsaken characters are also described in novels, like in the last example, the desolate council of before the storm, if you did reat it,
you would understand droites point that sylvanas doesn’t necessarily represent the entirely of their culture, and i say that as someone who doesn’t really care about them.
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Do any of those things matter? They don’t impact anything.
I would agree if it was for any story besides WoW, There is no rhym or reason in wow. Things happen because they must.
There is zero nuance that makes you think 10 steps ahead about the implications of a previous action or situation.
Does it matter? All I see are crazy edgy undead people who gush over the dark lady as they do something morally questionable. Just because in the book there is a story about George and Janet running a flower shop in Brill does not suddenly add a new perspective about the Forsaken’s cartoonish shinanigans.
It might as well be a fan fiction for all the effect it has.
Everything I have seen in-game seems to indicate she represents the forsaken accurately.
May be Putress would have been better but he is dead.
Except he is hated by literally everyone. Why would he be spared when Sylvanas eventually leaves?
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[quote=“Hetaera-sargeras, post:103, topic:215289, full:true”]
I find him hilarious tbh. He’s like a grumpy old man yelling at those darned kids to get off his lawn; but like an old man that shops at hot-topic to be hip and with-it. I also do not mind in the slightest that there is at least ONE Faction Rep that doesn’t kiss my butt every minute.
As for how he’ll survive, welp … he just has to prove the last scene of Sylvanas’ Warbringers correct. She walks towards Teldrassil with Nathanos and Saurfang at her sides; she ends it standing alone (with not even Nathanos at her side anymore). Its rather striking that symbolism.
Granted, for him to get jarred loose enough to actually choose the Forsaken’s needs over her’s, she’d have to do something unbelievably nightmarish to the Forsaken … but considering there aren’t many contenders left for Ogmot’s Shepherd … Sylvie might just have that covered.
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