Baine is going beastmode


#52

Sorry, it isn’t.

He didn’t ACT on it though. You might find that I did not condemn Saurfang for speaking out against what Sylvanas did. It only became a problem when he literally betrayed her. Yeah, Vol’jin did screw up with Garrosh, talking all manner of trash to the Warchief, and probably instilling his hate in trolls at that moment. So Garrosh was justified in booting Vol’jin, but at that moment, Vol’jin is no longer a traitor, he was not part of Garrosh’s Horde (as Garrosh himself said.) Thusly Garrosh had broken away from the original Horde and made his own, Vol’jin and all the members of the new Horde, decided to ally themselves who also saw Garrosh’s new Horde as a threat and beat them.

They already have been excused, you saying so does not make it so, sorry buddy.

YOUR identity of the Horde, She isn’t thrall, she isn’t a Orc, she isn’t a troll or Tauren, she is undead and is leader of the Horde, she has done nothing to purposefully and with malicious intent harm the members of the Horde. Did a few soldiers die as collateral so that the majority would not be slaughtered? Yes, she did. Which is justified.

Raising mindless undead? I point to you back to the Val’kyr who states that only the willing can be raised.

Derek is the only point you have, and one can make the argument that Derek was never meant to be a Forsaken, he was meant to be a tool, nothing more.


#53

Yeah it was soooooo bad that no one but Saurfang cared. Baine didn’t do a damn thing until Jaina was involved, please don’t pretend any of that crap had to do with upholding the honor of the Horde lol.


(Dotandplot) #54

Yes, it is. When you condemn the actions of one and then justify the actions of another who did the same thing because you like them more, it is mental gymnastics.

Baine and Saurfang didn’t act against Sylvanas until she started being Lich Queen. It wasn’t until UC that they realized how out of control Sylvanas was already becoming. You know, exactly like Vol’jin.

This is the new Horde. Current Horde doesn’t raise the dead for laughs. Vol’jin did the same thing. Especially when every race except (Sylvanas-retarded) Forsaken and arguably Goblins hold the same values.

That’s a falsehood even shown in-game. There are farmers in Western Plaguelands you kill and then immediately raise. You even do it in the War Campaign. “Willing only” my butt.

Derek is just the tip of the iceberg, bud.


(Dotandplot) #55

You realize this story only works if everyone acts retarded and out of character, right?

Lor’themar should of been the first one against Sylvanas after UC, but he is being held captive by the writers just like everyone else.


#56

Might as well stop all discussion on this expac then.

Why would Lor be the first to act against her? Him being cautious is pretty IC. The honor bros “acting” first is one of the few things that makes sense.


#57

No, you just refuse to see the nuances on why one was acceptable and the other wasn’t. You refuse to acknowledge the differences.

Erm… excuse me? Sylvanas did nothing to harm or risk Saurfang more then necessary, heck, she even remained behind to cover Baine’s escape. Saurfang spoke to Anduin that he was already commiting treasonous acts by allowing the enemy leader to live and prolong the war, merely in hopes of that he might kill her. And before Sylvanas did anything to Baine, he betrayed her by attempting to sabotage her plans. Vol’jin ONLY acted after Garrosh outright tried to have him killed and kicked out the Tauren and the Trolls.

Maybe it is, but the difference is that Garrosh didn’t just change the Horde, he kicked all other races of the Horde out and proclaimed the ones who followed him the true Horde. Sylvanas doesn’t do anything like that, does she act against some of the others moral beliefs? Yeah. Did she kick them out for voicing their displeasure? Did she try to have them murdered? No. Again your comparison falls flat.

Sorry, new lore supercedes old Lore, the lore I am citing is fresh, right from the Darkshore questline, thusly that is current lore and correct, Western Plaguelands was several expansions ago. Don’t like the retcons? Guess what buddy. Neither do I XD

Weird seeing how you are incapable of bringing up any other solid argument besides Derek who can still be debated on.


(Dotandplot) #58

Expac story is trash, I agree.

Why would the guy who’s nation was ransacked by an army of zombies be against his Warchief raising his faction members into the undead against their will? Hmm, no idea, honestly.


(Dotandplot) #59

There aren’t any big nuances, you’re just being a stubborn child.

Garrosh did nothing to harm Vol’jin or the Trolls until MoP either. Vol’jin was plotting against Garrosh before Garrosh even became a warmonger in MoP. Where was your “LOYALTEE AND HONAR TO WARCHAYF” then? Why didn’t Sylvanas kill Malfurion when Saurfang saved her? Why did Saurfang have to do it? Why didn’t Sylvanas occupy Teldrassil and instead destroyed her only way of winning the war? Why is Sylvanas such a tactical moron? Why did Saurfang abandon the Horde when Sylvanas threatened to raise him like his son was by the Lich King? Only the writers know. Baine sabotaged her plans because it was too far and even against her own supposed code of “free will”.

Garrosh changed the Horde just like Sylvanas is. The only difference is that the writers had everyone be in character against Garrosh and out of character against Sylvanas. There are also instances of Sylvanas threatening and even killing those who try to speak out. I’ve already named a few.

They didn’t even retcon it when they raised Kul Tirans against their will in the War Campaign, so you’re wrong again. Unless you want to argue Derek and every other Kul Tiran besides Zelling willingly let themselves be raised lmfao.

Weird how you still can’t see your own hypocrisy bud. I’ve proven my points, you’re just arguing semantics and head canon.


#60

Maybe if she did it to his people… which was pointed out in the SoO interaction between them. I think Lor is pragmatic enough to know that if UC falls there’s nothing standing between the Alliance and Quel’thalas. If she’s gotta raise some troops to try and stop that from happening as a last-ditch effort, well, sorry mooks. Lor isn’t as tethered to this bombastic idea of honor that Saurfang and Baine are.

I mean, it’s not our fault they didn’t give us choices back then. I’m sure many people would have sided with Garrosh since so many still spew about True Horde and how the Elves and Forsaken don’t belong in the faction despite being two of the most played races and, yknow, being in the faction for most of the game’s existence.


#61

There are, you just refuse to accept them, and are reducing yourself to insults because you have no arguments, whatsoever.

Wrong, he said he did not like Garrosh, and he is free to not like him, just as how Saurfang and Baine are free to not like her.

Garrosh himself said that he was no longer my Warchief, Garrosh himself said that I was no longer ‘PART… of HIS HORDE!’.

Writer intervention? To prove his loyalty? Ask the writers, I don’t know, but guess what: I gotta deal with it.

Cause Saurfang failed in a basic order to break the enemy moral by killing their leader. So the occupation of Teldrassil was not feasible as she more then likely remembers the last time she occupied a land without killing the leader and living the civilians alive. If you can’t remember, go to Gilneas, the leader inspired the civilians to become rebels and fight.

Weird, how the only way that Alliance can win is with deus ex machinas, plot conveniences and Mary Sues.

Hey, she made a valid point, that idiot only cares about his own suicidal mission. So why should Sylvanas be nice to a person who cares nothing but to die?

Why did she not stop her when she raised his own people as mindless undead? Keep telling yourself that this was all about honor, it wasn’t.

One sliver which is correct, the rest is false.

Sorry, did those undead that were raised say before they died that they don’t want to be raised? Did you hear their spirits? No? Then you wouldn’t know, thank you. I think a Val’kyr who can literally hear the souls of the dead knows the intricacies of necromancy more then you.

Says the dude refusing to accept canon because you don’t like it. So tell me, who is the hypocrite? No wait, let me answer before you do any more of your mental gymnastics: It is you.


(Dotandplot) #62

Roflmao, wtf is this response?

“Ey, dead Kul Tiran war hero, you there.”

“Wtf I’m dead, who are you?”

“You wanna come back and help the Horde kill your countrymen?”

“Eh, sure why not.”

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

That’s not even including the fact that pretty much all of them except Zelling hated what they became.

This is my last response to you, you’re just being petty at this point.


#63

Says the dude who had to resort to name-calling. Keep telling yourself that. As said, the Val’kyr in Darkshore is AFTER the War Campaign, thusly what she says counts and she states that she cannot raise certain Night Elves because they are not a willing soul to be raised.


(Dotandplot) #64

How do we know that she didn’t raise Blood Elves at UC? Surely it wasn’t just Tauren and Orcs on the front lines. Also, it would set a precedent. If she would do it to the other races, why wouldn’t she do it to the Blood Elves eventually? But this would require competent writing, so :roll_eyes:.


#65

I’m like 90% sure that the only Belves at BfL were Rangers up on the wall. Maybe if Lor sent more troops we could have held UC without having to resort to blighting and raising :upside_down_face:


#66

You are arguing with a obvious troll XD


(Ariël) #67

I think I’ve mentioned this lots of times, but these are sad times indeed when the pro-slavery Goblin and the elf that wanted to GTFO a couple of years back are better candidates for the job.


#68

This is freaking killing me.

I consider THIS to be the absolute biggest, stumbling, idiotic Lore Assassination they’ve committed in years.

Yes, I get it. Its supposedly canon now. Unless its a lie to pacify those who’d be concerned by raising people unwillingly (because suddenly Sylvanas or the Valkyr care about PR), its apparently a thing now.

Then I look across the boat and see LILLIAN FREAKING VOSS standing there in direct contradiction to this entire statement. Her entire back story that WE PLAY THROUGH involves her being raised, immediately freaking the hell out, immediately being scared and having no clue what the frell is going on, and having to learn to cope with it. There is no way she was raised “willingly”.

I also am pretty sure I remember back in Cata that there was the option of, “If you dont want to be Undead, you can just be put back in the grave…” THIS LITERALLY IMPLIES THE CHOICE ISNT MADE BEFOREHAND!

I’d go ask those poor Horde souls meandering aimlessly in the blight in front of Undercity, but they attack EVERYONE. Alliance and Horde. Did they willingly come back to be that way? To not even have the mental capacity not to attack the Red Team?! I highly doubt it. (and if they’re supposedly just “soulless wandering monsters” and not who they used to be raise in undeath, I remind you Blizz made it canon that you need a soul to have an undead… … unless I read that one wrong, the retconning is leaving me dizzy)

AND. AAAAAAND. Why were the Forsaken so angry at Arthas all this time? Clearly they wanted to be raised to serve him in the Scourge. Geez. (Edit: Unless the implication is that the Val’kyr can only raise someone if they’re willing)

Pushing this new “Only the willing are raised into Undeath” canon re-write is the new pinnacle of lore stumbles. I actually want a Retcon of this retcon.

/end rant (sorry guys, I needed to vent that out)


#69

Dude, I understand, it sucks, but what I am trying to make that troll see that as uch as it sucks, it is lore and is canon now. I agree, stupid and you have Lilian try to explain why some people go bonkers bananas the way they do, apparently the ressurection messes with your mind, and perhaps, and I am trying to benefit it. Perhaps it is how the question is asked: Do you want to be raised and live again? Doesn’t sound so bad when the alternative is whatever hell-hole the Naaru and the Void have in store for you.


(Akiyass) #70

I was under the impression that Willing resurrection is a Night Elf thing? Something like, because of their connection to the Emerald Dream and Elune or something…

… Which, kind of already contradicts Night Elf Death Knights still so…

Sigh idk man.


(Ponex) #71

Well they definitely weren’t talking about Arthas since the only wholesome undead he ever made was his horse.