It’s not that I hate him; it’s that I can’t think of a reason to like him.
-He’s essentially a book-only character. He’s somehow been part of the Horde story since WC3 TFT, yet he has almost no in-game presence to speak of. The most important quest chain he was part of prior to BfA was recruiting the HM Tauren to the Horde (so basically bringing in Malya, who feels like a female version of him except that she actually gets things done). Even in BfA, he still does almost nothing. He stands around the mission map, and gives you maybe 2 quests while there. I really don’t see how anyone could find him interesting based off of this.
-Regarding the books, why do all of his major stories and plot points involve him being friends with Anduin and Jaina? Why does this have to be portrayed in such a weird way (mailing pieces of himself to Anduin)? Why do so many of his stories come across as him ashamed of the Horde in some capacity? Why aren’t there any real, meaningful stories of him supporting the Horde?
-Most importantly, why is the ONLY thing of relevance he does in BfA is help Jaina? Why do this immediately after BoD? We just got done having Jaina as a raid boss who assisted in killing King Rastakhan - why would any Horde want to help her at this point?
For me, he’s unsalvageable at this point. There’s been more than enough time to try and give him some characterization other than Anduin’s bff, but somehow this never materialized. As a result, I really don’t care what happens to him this expansion.
As for arguments about which Horde leader is most likely to get my character killed, at least with Sylvanas it’s an expectation. With characters like Baine and Saurfang, we already know they’ll abandon a fight midway through if things somehow violate their sense of honor. What we don’t know is what the working definition of “honor” exactly is for them. Even if the motivation’s different, it’s still getting your own troops killed in the end for personal desires.
Sorry, I misspoke. I mean I’d rather Blizz have taken five damn minutes to come up with something for bfa like with the Broken Shore. That had two different scenes depending on if you were Alliance or Horde.
I’d rather had the burning be presented as more ambiguous. Say during her little chat with the dying elf chick instead of ordering the tree burned someone exploded it without Sylvie giving the order. The Alliance could still assume that the Horde is responsible but the rest of the Horde has no idea. Sylvanas of course sent a team to do it, her plan all along was to get the Horde into a war, but now she has plausible deniability in front of the other leaders. It’s more underhanded that way and is more like the conniving person she is. She gets her war and she gets to tell the Horde that they are the victims
I understand that this might be hard to figure out, but no Proudmoore is “one of her people”. He’s Kul-Tiran, one of the enemies of the Horde and therefore the Forsaken.
You understand how arbitrary (and then ultimately valueless) that makes Forsaken “Free Will” for Sylvie though right? Granted, she’s NEVER been bound by that rule (its more of a propaganda piece for her), but the fact that she can just arbitrarily note any Undead she raises as “Not Forsaken”; and then justifiably deny them free will is some real scary crap. Its essentially no different than saying a slave has no rights because they’re property; not people.
Because every single time he has been given an opportunity to betray the horde or patronize the alliance he took it? Taurajo had him exiling his own people on extremely poor logic, him betraying garrosh by alerting the alliance of the attack on theramore was actually expected, he seems to value his relationship with Jaina and Anduin more then his duty to his people or anyone hordeside, he sent his horn to anduin in the mail, and his breaking point being Derek and not Teldrassil really makes it seem like he cares more for Jaina then any form of decency.
Now he is supposed to be a rallying point for the horde, which makes no sense as he really has done more harm then good to the horde. I dislike Sylvanas, but that doesn’t mean Baine is a good likable character. You can have 2 hated characters fight each other.
One time he gave a valueless warning to Jaina (as payback to her help with the Grimtotem Rebellion); the second time turning what would have been a method of valueless escalation during a war the Horde is already losing; into a potential olive branch? Because the Derek plan was HOT GARBAGE if Sylvie really did not intend to have Baine release Derek (and thus pressured Baine into doing it with REALLY public torture; and sacrificing her own people to sell that charade).
So … Baine has helped Jaina twice (not Anduin, or the Alliance specifically). And neither of these instances really changed much in the grand scheme of things…
What i mean is that compared to what he’s done for the horde, baine has benefited the alliance far more. Taurajo was a complete failure as leader and made him look spineless, as attacking a military stronghold deep withing your homelands is an act of war so his reasoning was faulty in the exile for destroying a base bombarding the tauren for years by that point. Warning Theramore might have been the moral thing to do, but it was still an act of treason in favor of the alliance. Honor doesn’t cut it here, he was actively aiding the enemy. Derek meanwhile is treason to the highest order, he killed loyal troops, sabatoged an operation, and stole the hordes flagship. He only didn’t warn the alliance about teldrassil because sylvanas sent him all the way to silithus. He will put the alliance before the horde, and has done so at every single opportunity.
Baine isn’t a bad person, but he shouldn’t be the leader of the Tauren as he isn’t written for the horde, he is written for the alliance.
Yup … Taurajo, nothing like not dragging your entire race into a spiraling war of escalation with the Alliance by catering to those that wanted disproportionate retribution for that tragedy. Taurajo was avenged in Cata; with the slaughter of “The Butcher of Taraujo” and nearly every single one of his men. It was then doubly reinforced when Northwatch was raised to the friggen ground. Anything beyond that is not JUSTICE; its petty revenge of those people who place the value of their loss over their lives of their kinsmen (who they expect to die for their vendettas).
Also, as a side note, Hamuul in “As Our Father’s Before Us” makes it a point to make it apparent that Tauren conceptions of Honor are NOT the same as Orcish conceptions of Honor (Troll honor is not identical either). These three groups are often slapped together rather haphazardly due to their cultural similarities; but there are key differences in the way they perceive that metaphysical concept. One such key point, the Tauren are not honorbound to the Horde through blind Loyalty. Runetotem states as much when he says Baine is not bound by his father’s oath to Thrall (and the Tauren are not bound to the Horde that Garrosh created). Bluntly, the ONLY reason that the Tauren are even in the Horde anymore (narratively) is because of Baine.
Not really? It wouldn’t be an escalation of warfare since the alliance already wiped out an entire tribe and were engaging in total warfare. That was a golden retcon to make baine look good.
To be honest Droite, me and you have done this song and dance like, 8 times by this point, we just gotta disagree on what’s going on. A lot of people hate Baine, and i’m explaining why they do that, answering the guys questions. If you like the guy great, but a lot of horde players hate him (Some of which are guys who are full force behind saurfang).
Let me put it like this, if you hate the way Golden writes horde, your going to hate Baine, as she is his main writer and a lot of people do hate the way Golden writes horde.
Intent is all that really matters here. Baine intended to help save the Alliance at Theramore by giving them a heads up about the attack. That he failed to achieve that (mostly, anyway) doesn’t negate the reason he attempted to do it.
Honestly? I don’t actually mind how Golden writes characters that much.
Sylvie’s character is not her fault, that fault lies with Dave Kosak … who set the character on this path years ago with “Edge of Night”. Golden merely continuing on the path set before her is not something I hold against her. As for her interpretations of Baine and Saurfang … they’re certainly better in the books (in a place where their motivations and internal thought process can be explored). In the game (or at least BfA) the execution with both characters is very poor.
I like the diversity of opinion, culture, and ideals within the Horde (provided they aren’t malignant, like Sylvie’s always sort of have been). If that means a diverse perspective on the Alliance from the Horde’s representatives … so be it.
Going by the same logic Jaina is now a horde boot licking sympathiser too.
Don’t get me wrong, Baine, Saurfang and Thrall deserve to die if I had a choice in the matter (from an Alliance perspective) but I am not crazy enough to say Jaina is a Horde boot licker.
It’s laughable that Baine thinks he knows the Forsaken better than Sylvanas. He just insists out of nowhere that Derek is Forsaken despite him never joining the faction, Sylvanas only intended to use him as a tool. How is it any different from how the Forsaken create Abominations?
In what way is engaging in a war with the Alliance for their attacks disproportionate? Did the US settle for destroying the Japanese fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor?