The problem is that you would put an ability in he talent tree that’s mostly a PVP ability in a primarily PVE game and file it under the excuse of mobility options while not being one for most of the game. That’s not an improvement.
I don’t have a problem with the ability being a straight copy from heroic leap with a different aesthetic, personally.
At this point it just feels like people are trying to put a needless twist on it just to justify its existence and not just be heroic leap for paladin.
And even if you can target an ally, it implies you ally needs to get out of the aoe before you can get out too.
You need agency over your movement.
It’d be a different story if we could have both DS and this at the same time.
It would look more like warrior but with leap and charges conditions switched.
It’s an improvement for Ret PvP and likely Holy PvP. It helps to give a fresh gameplay feeling for long-time Paladin players, especially ones who have always wanted mobility. It puts Ret on equal footing with all other melee specs and it brings consistency to in game player characters with Turalyon, Yrel and Liadrin who are all showcased leaping. All of these aspects make it an improvement to the game.
I am glad you do not have a problem with a straight up copy from Heroic Leap. I seriously would not either. The issue is I do not think Blizzard would implement Avenging Leap in that manner.
This post was all about creating the most realistic implementation of an ability like this we could ever hope to see. Coming from the perspective of being accurate to the theme of Paladin, connecting with other Blizzard Paladin characters who were all shown leaping, maintaining a soft “weakness” within the ability’s design to stay in line with the idea of traditional Paladin mobility philosophy and trying to make Ret consecration/Holy mastery more enjoyable.
I get it.
I just feel like it doesn’t really meet the stated objective of making slight improvement to mobility for everyone as PVE players wouldn’t get any real use out of this option.
It seems overly centered on PVP while WoW being a primarily PVE game.
Your option requires a target to use, that makes very limited. How are you supposed to get away from a mechanics or an enemy player or players. And you can’t just leap to ally every time, as they are either not in a good position or not there the to begin with, and certain mechanics make leaping on top of an ally a wipe. As you want to get away from other to use it .
Not to mention its utterly useless when there’s no target or the enemy is out of line of sight.
Like I said Falling Sword(Diablo 3 Crusader ability, the ability paladins should have gotten from them over their Steed Charge, which is where Divine Steed comes from) Its same concept and functionality, doesn’t require a target(Cooler looking IMO but each to their own)
It would be neat to have an instant gap closer in PvP. Especially for Ret but it would also have a useful and interesting synergy with Holy mastery for proximity-based healing.
I am sure this ability and the way it is designed could have it uses for Prot PvE most likely in dungeon content.
Why do you think the idea of a leap is trash? Paladins are consistently showcased using a leap similar to this throughout WoW and other Blizzard media. If Paladins should not be warriors and giving them a leap does this, why is Blizzard still choosing to display them leaping? Is Blizzard wrong? By your logic as well, are Vengeance Demon Hunters warriors?
All of this to say, this was my best attempt to create an ability that we could realistically hope to see actually implemented. I am not a primarily PvE player but that does not mean that this ability has to be brought to the live game exactly as I have laid it out. A large number of tweaks to Avenging Leap could easily satisfy these issues in a PvE environment.
It was also a charged cast when turalyon sexecuted this. This ability in PvE is trash. It’s contingent on you having a target and doesnt fix that our base mobility is bad. This would only give you a super niche bad ability.
I made the following suggestion in the blue thread regarding a Final Reckoning Wings modifier as a way to reduce button bloat and dial down on stacking modifiers.
Of course in this scenario we’re keeping Divine steed as I don’t see them realistically changing that this time around.
What do you guys think about it?
I agree with you IF it comes as a replacement/choice for steed.
If it’s an addition then it’s functionally a charge/intervene in 1 ability but you jump instead of running.
I wouldn’t mind it but again not as a substitution over steed.
I think the strong point of this suggestion is that it could seemingly be integrated into the spec tree and not touch the class tree as the devs didn’t mention it in their post.
Actually, I am not of the idea that they give us a jump and with that they fix the mobility problem, not the other way around, but it would be good to have it as an additional option, of course, to make it fun, and I do not agree that they eliminate Divine Steed, I have already repeated it countless times even years ago when they gave it to us, that we had to have the same Divine Steed from the tank, that is functional, with the addition that they improve it and give us immunity while the effect lasts, and Added to all this, having back what was really an unbreakable spirit that passively increased our base speed by 20% due to the conditions in which we found ourselves, this is what I think, apart from the data that was leaked I see them well , increase the range of all our skills, we would not occupy the flash of the rogue, but it would greatly improve our mobility
I’ve made a similar suggest of turning Final Reckoning into leap/teleport before, as it does have a good impact animation for the paladin to teleport and come crashing down with(Basically Falling Sword). So I’m definitely for it
I don’t know about a wings modifier, I’m of the preference of things being more straight up. That being said though, could instead of removing Seraphim as you suggested in your post, combine it with Seraphim(instead of it popping wings). Still as I said, my preference is it just being straight up damage and mobility.
When suggesting this, my goal was to target the different points they touched in the initial post.
Button bloat
Stacking Modifiers
But not so much mobility, not in any meaningful manner anyway.
The reason why I suggest cutting Sera is that it’s basically another wings but with raw stats and its not as visually clear for anyone that you have Seraphim active and that you hit harder. This way they can maybe return some power inside the spenders themselves.
(So cutting down on modifier)
Secondly while Falling sword is a VERY cool concept, just pairing with FR would create this weird middle ground between being a mobility option and a damage CD.
If this thing does large damage, its gonna be used as such kinda like SoV being used for damage just because it does some.
Furthermore it becomes a mobility spell on a 1min CD? That doesn’t feel good either to me.
We’re then balanced around those and it just feels bad to cut on mobility to deal damage or vice versa.
If we pair it with both FR and Wings ( so to be clear here, it replaces wings basically cutting 2 buttons from bars if FR replace Sera) it becomes clearly a damage CD and on a short enough CD that you can enter fight with it in m+ or just cast it wherever you are without it feeling bad.
In PVP, it would be a way less telegraphed option compared to just running in with wings up and with the power tune down a bit for being a 1min CD it would be less oppressive as well while giving you better agency on the engage.
Kinda like how Metamorphosis for DH isn’t really part of the mobility kit but still makes you leap.
Then it lets the field open to have more diverse mobility option.
Any combination of 2 of the following would put us in a good position mobility wise.
I agree that steed should be changed to a leap and on a 25s cd with 2 charges. in the Wrath of the Lich King Arthas fight, Tirion leaped to save the raid last minute. there was no wheelchair seen in that fight
I doubt that. Your suggested replacement has no versatility whatsoever and would leave Paladin mobility in an even worse state than if we were to keep Divine Steed as is. I suspect the likes are for the broader idea of a sweeping change to Paladin’s mobility kit, not your suggested iteration.
Now, if it were suggested as something atop DS, where once per Wings Prot gets a Tele-to-ally, Ret gets a Tele-to-enemy, and Holy gets a, idk, Rescue/Tele-ally, then we’d be risking excess, but at least the class wouldn’t be even worse off.
I’d far rather see DS made oGCD and hastened to a 45s CD, and then made augmentable in a variety of ways (tramples enemies for snare and interrupt [or just brief knock-down, if that’s categorized separately from normal stuns], etc.).
Would kind of also like to see Steed be a bit more boom-or-bust and capable of adding to that bit of “inexorable” thematic value for Paladin, if only for visual cohesion. For instance, let it purge root/snares on cast (even if perhaps at talent cost) and resist all snares and roots while active but have it dismount us outright if rooted during that time (even if this comes at talent cost).
The comment referring to that player being in the minority for preferring Divine Steed was in relation to just in general, replacing Divine Steed. It did not exactly have to be for Avenging Leap as I laid it out here.
I still do believe that if given a choice for a new mobility identify. Instead of or at least alongside Divine Steed as a choice node talent option, is how the majority of Paladin players would feel.
And that could be for many reasons. Many dislike Divine Steed for its visual, gameplay or theme. A lot of Paladins also would enjoy a leap, teleport or charge type mechanic. My thought was to try to create the best, most practical new identity for Paladin mobility that we could hope to see make it to the live game and get behind.
Of course, there are endless ways you could adapt Avenging Leap to make it function even more practically than I have here. One of the other ideas we discussed earlier on in the thread was to make Avenging Leap have around a 1 sec. cast time. You could play around more with it and say it now functions exactly the same as Heroic Leap (via a free casting target location), but for Paladins it just has a cast time.
But the rest of what you said I agree with you on to a large degree. If Blizzard does not want to go a route similar to this one, the better solutions are to give us back some of our old kit. That could be through emancipation, burden of guilt, pursuit of justice and long arm of the law type mechanics for some improvement. Pair that with improvements specifically to Divine Steed and it is good to go and will be loved.
alot of you are giving suggestions that dont really fix the issue of ret mobility and most of them are worse than steed in the topic of mobility. i wont pretend to talk about pvp cause i dont play wow for its lackluster pvp scene. for pve you just cant really beat steed in terms of pure mobility. most solutions are really just remove horse from the gcd, make it break roots and slows. then make hand of frfeedom stop knockbacks/loss of movement with a small speed boost.
that or they remove steed for a worse speed mobility like sprint
Since no oGCDs have a cast time, though, wouldn’t that, too, just exacerbate current issues. Now you’d have to wait for the GCD, and then spend a second immobile… just to have access to your mobility tool?
Agreed, but I’d still recommend starting with the improvements to Steed itself. Switch to anything else only if diminishing returns kind of push that decision.
Burst movement tends to be the more useful for all but QoL as minor snares tend to be so close to permanent in their availability that any mobility not also providing resistance or great enough to make up lost ground tends to be insignificant/insufficient outside of M+ QoL. PoJ, for instance, was rarely taken over SoL or LAotL. Worse, though, now we’re (for whatever arbitrary reason) stuck to only two-choice choice nodes (which would likely force it between just either of two previously favored options), while Ret is often considered already a bit bloated.
Just a small point here. In PvE, you’re actually even more likely to want an oGCD movement ability, because you’re more likely to live or die based on your position. Outside of rounding a pillar against a ranged would-be killing blow spell, that’s just not nearly so often the case in PvP.
Granted, when we consider the value of the immediacy of an oGCD (atop its reduced uptime costs), it would make sense that a GCD mobility tool should be stronger than an oGCD. But that GCD tool and its compensations would still be more applicable in PvP.
Aye, but that much would be an even greater boon for PvE than for PvP.