Avenging Leap - The Fix for Paladin Mobility 10.0.7

Classes Paladin
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I originally wrote this post after seeing Liadrin leap in the Hearthstone cinematic to attack Arthas. But now after seeing Turalyon do this in game as well, what is the reason we do not have a leap as players?

It does not make much sense to have an in game major lore paladin leap in an opening patch questline or showcase a paladin leaping in the Hearthstone cinematic trailer when the player characters cannot do this in game.

Here are my questions now for Blizzard and for Kaivax. And these are coming from someone who genuinely wants to see an instant gap closer for Retribution.

Why does Turalyon leap in game and why did Liadrin leap in the Hearthstone cinematic when in game paladin player characters cannot?

Is leaping appropriately thematic for the paladin class in world of warcraft? If no, why did you choose to display Turalyon and Liadrin leaping? If yes, why do paladin player characters not have a similar ability?

Why does there appear to be a mismatch between how paladins are displayed, such as in the case with Turalyon and Liadrin, versus how they function in game under their current restricted maneuverability design philosophy?

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124

I don’t want to sound like a killjoy, but what you’re proposing doesn’t solve the paladin’s mobility problem, it’s attractive I admit, but I’m going further, and more ambitious, why not add this as a talent, and improve Divine Steed? leave it as is the one with the tank specialty, plus a bonus, “immunity to everything while divine steed is active” this would be functional plus the best addition to Aura of the crusader, speed and evasion passives and what you propose, so if it is resolved mobility, I will do all this

Because Divine Steed only needs to be improved to make it work, it’s not for them to eliminate it either, I like it.

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I am unsure how this solution does not solve paladin’s mobility. If an instant gap closer directly to enemies and allies does not do it, what exactly would? Your idea of allowing us to maintain Divine Steed alongside Avenging Leap is too much mobility for Retribution Paladins and quite frankly is unnecessary. However, I do agree that if Divine Steed is kept, it deserves some type of improvement. Examples are removing the GCD or auto applying freedom.

In light of our newest datamined updates, I once again have more to add on the topic of Avenging Leap for Retribution and the Paladin class as a whole.

The most recent updates show a talent allowing judgement to slow enemies. This is a GOOD change! Hopefully we can also remove Hand of Hinderance to eliminate a button alongside this. In addition, we have an increased range on Final Verdict, also a GOOD change.

This is now the time to complete our rework and add in Avenging Leap as a choice node competing with Divine Steed. There is absolutely ZERO good reason for not allowing this as an option and I will explain why.

Picking up Avenging Leap means sacrificing the mobility niche that Divine Steed provides. It should be the PLAYER’S choice how they would like to move on their class. Since this tradeoff is the case, the result would NOT be game breaking to grant us an instant gap closer.

We have already addressed how it IS thematically appropriate for Paladins to leap. If it was not, Blizzard would not on more than one occasion showcase it.

EVERY other melee spec has the option to gain an instant gap closer. Denying access to this mobility niche to the Paladin class no longer feels like it is holding true to a design philosophy. Instead, it only feels like a forced arbitrary exclusion.

Last and most importantly, it is FUN to press gap closing abilities, especially on melee specializations.

Many paladin players have been playing the class for years and a fresh revamp on paladin mobility would go far for the future. If not and what we only receive is a slow baked in on judgement and increased range on Final Verdict, this essentially solidifies that Retribution will NEVER get one. If it is not implemented now, it never will be.

The time is now and we are going to have to fight hard! If you, our class developer Kaivax have read this thread, I seriously challenge you to address my questions and points laid out in this thread. Many players are starving for this mobility refresh. Please do not let this opportunity go to waste!

2 Likes
126

Please, absolutely not. This would be horrible in dungeons when we have to do the death walk back, we’d still be the wheelchairs that we are. The fun part about being rogues, or warriors, or demon hunters is that you don’t have to have a target to have mobility

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Absolutely yes

We absolutely should

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We need something unique, not a 1:1 copy of warriors.

But your asking us to get a charge? You know charge/intercept only works when you have something targeted, right?

I’ve been asking this question ever since we shifted to holy power, a system that contradicts paladin lore and how they should feel.

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129

That’s subjective. If we got something similar to warriors where we can target where we’re going to land (infernal strike, heroic leap, meta, etc.) and then have us fill with holy light and have that crash into the ground, I think that would be super cool. Make it an x yard radius and anything in that radius takes holy damage. Possibly put a conc where we land.

Or, what I think is cool, target an area where you throw your weapon to, the leap to your weapon while crashing down with holy light, stunning enemies for x seconds and putting a consecration down. Would help consecration feel better in pvp because now they can’t just step out because they’re stunned. But idk, I hardly ever pvp so I can’t speak for that. But that would be really cool for not only mobility (maybe make it 2 charges?), but also great in dungeons when the tank pulls and we’re still 200 yards away and everyone is there but us :upside_down_face:

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130

WoW is comprised of many small populations.
And every single one of them requires maintenance if they are to achieve and improve player retention.

While I understand your point, it isn’t absolute and frankly simply isn’t true on long term objectives.
If they were to reason it out like this, classes and spec would have barely changed since classic which is demonstrably false.

The time allocated to new content must obviously take a larger part of the “pie” but class maintenance is definitely a part of that pie too even if they are only doing a few spec/class at a time.

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131

My issue with leap is your making it t restricted to targeting, it doesn’t solve our mobility issue. Take RLP for example, taking Divine Steed away how will you drop the vortex away from the party on the first boss and the Flamespit at the final boss.

Theirs currently a lot of mechanics that you need distance for which Divine Steed handles.

The issue is Divine Steed is on a ridiculously long cd compared to other classes and doesn’t do enough.

Why not baseline make Divine Steed 30 seconds with 2 charges and last 4 seconds. Basically combine Cavalier and Seasoned Warhorse together, then make Seasoned Warhorse grant immunity roots/snares on cast. Also saves us a talent point to put else where.

This gives us greater flexibility of running mechanics out or getting to soaking mechanics and isn’t restricted by targeting someone.

As clunky Divine Steed is currently and like I suggested could be greatly improved on I think the way WoW is designed it’s needed.

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132

In that scenario you would simply talent into Divine Steed rather than Avenging Leap. My suggestion has become to make this new talent a choice node to compete alongside Divine Steed.

It is up to the player to choose how they would like to use their Paladin maneuverability.

Considering how hesitant Blizzard is to address paladin mobility, the target requirement of Avenging Leap helps to maintain a soft “limit” for how we can execute moving around effectively.

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Precisely. I don’t like the idea of having to target something to have mobility. It doesn’t help with getting out of big AOEs

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I understand, but literally in most scenarios, PvE wise Divine Steed would be picked, Raiding most definitely be Divine Steed, it just be a few niche Dungeons in M+ that Avenging Leap would see value, PvP it would stand out more, but PvE wise Divine Steed would be vastly better already.

And then we are literally left with the same problem, like I mentioned Divine Steed just needs to be vastly improved, it gives us great freedom of movement as it is, just poor in comparison compared to other specs.

HoV if you bopped someone else and Fenrir targets you, your dead, RLP you’ll wipe the group or put insane stress on the healer, NoK Steed great way to get ballista’s if no range and great to run if targeted by final boss spear throw. Acadamy Collecting orbs to throw and soaking orbs in vec, putting down your AoE on final boss away from group, I could keep going.

I can really only see Avenging Leap being good in PvP.

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135

Even if Avenging Leap saw most of its play in PvP, there should be no issue. Do you think a direct leap to your allies as holy or to enemies/allies as prot would have its uses in a PvE environment?

Ret PvP comes to mind first but Holy PvP would gain an interesting dynamic for the melee healer design.

For Avenging Leap to make the best sense as a talent point, acting as a choice node alongside Divine Steed, we would also need to have Unbound Freedom baked into our general or spec talent trees. This provides us with an option to increase movement speed in the circumstance where you are talented into Avenging Leap and not Divine Steed.

Regardless of what happens with our upcoming rework, Unbound Freedom would be a great addition to the general or spec trees. The added utility of increasing someone else’s movement speed directly alongside you is moving in a better direction.

The real question now of course is, why would you be against adding in an optional mobility niche talent option for Paladin players who clearly would like to choose it?

Lots of players would think it’s a fun ability to press and thematically fits their idea of a Paladin.

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I’m against it cause like I mentioned, it’s going to take away the adjustments we need for Divine Steed to be actually decent in PvE, where I’d arguably say more people do then PvP.

If Divine Steed got the changes we need to fix our mobility, then sure add Avenging Leap for PvP. But if adding this and nothing changes for Divine Steed we are in the exact same position.

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137

You ripped this from Yrel’s toolkit in heroes of the storm. one of her 20 talents also applies concentration on leap but I am all for this to be a thing in wow!

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138

That is pretty funny I have never played Heroes of the Storm. I seriously had no idea Yrel has a talent that applies a consecration effect.

Even more funny though, this is yet ANOTHER example of a Paladin using a LEAP ability.

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yeah it’s really cool she sprouts pally wings while she’s charging her leap :slight_smile:

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I was thinking, maybe we can add some utility to this as well. They could add a intercept feature to it, where if we use it with an ally targeted and leap to them, the AoE effect would instead of damage, give all ally’s near by when used (on ally target) give them a small absorb or heal.

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141

You should try playing her. While I don’t really want Rets to have her Heroic Leap (I’d rather Blizzard buff Divine Steed to match Diablo 3’s Steed), I think Yrel’s kit could be Ret’s solution to our ability bloat. Yrel can either click or charge her core abilities. The charge effects are good bonus effect, but sometimes it is better to spam the abilities instead.

Imagine if we took the many Ret CDs and turned them into charge-effects on our core abilities. A charged Cons becomes Final Reck, CS becomes a Wake, TV becomes Justicar’s Vengeance, Judgement becomes Divine Toll, and Hammer of Wrath becomes Execution Sentence.

Now imagine that our HoPo builders no longer have a CD but only generate 1 HoPo. Using a fully-charged builder grants 3 HoPo but puts the button on a 20sec CD. Now things get interesting. You never want to use ALL your full-charge builders at once, but you’ll usually want to use 1 or 2 at any time.

Now imagine that we have talents to make our full charge even better. For example, one of Yrel’s talents grants her movement speed once she fully powers her warmace-cleave ability (the speed goes away once she finally swings). It would be fun to have something similar as a gap closer.

In short, I really hope the devs take inspiration from Yrel when reworking the Ret kit. I also recommend players try her out for a few games.

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As a sidenote, Rets were rumoured in Legion beta to be getting a movement ability from Tyrael’s hots kit. Basically, we’d throw a sword on the ground for small damage, then press the button again to teleport to it. I’m still waitin for it BLIZZ! :stuck_out_tongue:

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