This I do not agree with. While the map advantage is substantial it is not the primary contributor to hordes win %
I am just trying to get people to realize that you cant get a good feeling of balance when significant portions of the team are not playing. I dont think you have ever even responded to that idea…do you think that you can get good balance information if 30% of your team was missing?
I am not playing devils advocate, i am not bais am not doing anything else. Assuming anything except that im presenting my opinion in good-faith is not conducive to good conversation though.
Objectively given even skill and participation there is not a single tactic that alliance could use that horde couldn’t either mirror or employ a minute or two faster other than a base race.
It would make these conversations a lot more productive if you could see through your bias and admit the areas where you have an advantage.
It would be a much more productive conversation if you actually engaged with what I am saying at all.
Do you think you can get good map balance information with upwards off 30% of your team missing?
The idea that 30% of the team is missing at the start is a fallacy.
Any AV I’ve been in recently starts with 100% alliance participation and we win the 1st large scale engagement. We make our way to IBGY, but slowly but surely, we lose by attrition to wave after wave of horde reinforcements. Then we get sent all the way back and the horde take and easily horde SHGY because it’s harder to reinforce that GY, which also happens to be walled off on 3 sides.
Alliance start afking at this point, and the only option is to send stealth south to hopefully kill some Lts so we dont end up empty handed.
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That number is pulled directly from the OPs first post. I have just been using it through the thread.
Have you considered that this is why games don’t go well?
Would be interesting if Horde spawns mirrored Alliance and instead of spawning at the cave 20 at a time to defend ibgy they spawned at fwgy 10 at a time.
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You will not acknowledge the facts so our conversation will remain at a stand still until you either make a contrary accusation instead of just playing devil’s advocate or shed your bias and acknowledge the information I have presented as being factual… which it is.
AV is supposed to be a mess
I agree, i would love to see spawning points randomized. I think we could get actual good map balance data from that. I have also agreed that players should spawn at graveyards if they exist instead of the cave.
This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You only “believe” the parts that fit your narrative. The problems with the map has been explained many times, in detail, and you refuse to acknowledge it and use the parts you do believe as an excuse.
Horde starting closer to alliance objectives isn’t a player problem. It’s a design flaw. Horde ressing at the cave instead of fwgy when iceblood is contested is not a player problem. It’s a design flaw. Until you can admit there are flaws with the map without resorting to “but players are afk”, I’m not sure how anyone can take you seriously.
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The game is over at that point.
The fact that the alliance can completely dominate and outplay the horde at the initial engagement but can’t hold IBGY due to rez waves of 20 horde rezzing at the cave is what breaks the BG. Alliance can play better and be better yet still lose. That’s horrible balance.
Let the best team win.
99% win rate is not explained by anything other than a severe map advantage.
Racial balance, afks, etc should not cause alliance to lose 99% of the BG.
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You’re dodging my argument again, this time when restated as a direct question. You’re the one causing this conversation to go around and around in circles.
Do you think you can get good map balance information with upwards off 30% of your team missing?
Your argument is a straw man and I refuse to argue against it.
30% of alliance are not afk at the beginning. That doesn’t happen.
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With that attitude it most certainly is.
Are you nit-picking the 30% number? Because like I said, that number was just a stand-in. The fact that you have people not trying at all is having an effect on the game.
Also, strawman is when you take someone else’s argument and change it. A faulty premise is not the same as a strawman.
That doesn’t matter. Both sides have the chance of having people not participate. Even if it’s more likely to happen to alliance due to queus, the win rate shouldn’t be 99%.
Any BG I’ve been in, we had good participation and win the 1st and 2nd large scale engagement. We still lose because we can’t hold IBGY fue to map flaws.
If you gave one team a victory in the 1st large scale fight, you’d expect that they might win more than 50% of the time. Yet how is that that team still loses 99% of the time even after winning the first few large team fights?
You play on a RP server. I play on a PVP server with horde outnumbering us 60-40. Yet we repeatedly out fought them during phase 2 on world bosses BRM, etc when we go in with the right tactics and control the key geographical locations.
Geography is important. Very important.
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I was under the impression that Alliance were not participating at a much higher rate. It surely seems that way from my point of view and it seems other people here on the forums agree.
At least you’re trying to engage the argument, disagreeing with its premise is at least more interaction with what I’m actually saying than any one else has done. Thank you for that.
A good portion of AV botters have been banned, and the alliance normally starts with most people actively playing until they hit a brick wall at SHGY, where they are camped 10 at a time at nauseum.
You cannot bypass SHGY and the bunker from the north like the horde can from icewing… so the alliance are stuck basically spawning at the cave.
The map is completely f’d trying to push past SH bunker from the north, but coming from the south you can completely ignore what is supposed to be the alliance “choke”.
The alliance don’t have any meaningful choke points until we can capture the hordes… THAT should tell you something.
Da bridge! da bridge!
Game is long past lost if we are turtling van. People act like the alliance could win the game by immediately retreating to the infamous “bridge”.
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I am happy that a lot of the people actively botting have been dealt with, that was an issue for the Alliance. But there are still a lot of people still being willing-non-participants…still sitting behind their keyboard, just watching Netflix etc.
I can completely understand why the Alliance is demoralized though, and with instant queues it makes more sense to stop trying and phish for a better game next time…but I think that is exactly what causes a lot of the Alliance losses.
They think to themselves that it is not worth trying, we’re going to lose anyways…might as well speed it up. And when that is your mindset, how can you get any real insight on the map.