how long are you both gonna go back and forth . I
Am personally done i already accepted that i dont know and there many possibility and i dont really think it matter. It would matter if you were in position to actually change the map itself.
I still believe Blizz will change AV sooner rather than later, but perhaps Iām naive. This isnāt a small imbalance, itās a broken map.
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Oh I agree the cave Rez is a massive advantage.
Issue is classic is on its last 2 phases.
I just donāt see them changing it for the last 2 phases. I wish they would change it to prove alliance would win in AV, but Iām also naive.
Yeah, itās weird, but I view classic as half done even though weāre on phase 5 just because phases 1-3 were sort of a rolling start.
If we were in phase 6, I wouldnāt bother wasting time.
But if weāre going to be playing this for 8-12 months, then I do want to see this fixed soon so I can enjoy AV for that 8-12 months.
In your version of āfactsā and ārealityā, a bridge with 2 archer towers at one end, an elite stationed at the end, roaming elites near the end, and sheer damaging drops on either side, is not considered an advantage.
Youāre right! In TBC itās going to be an amazing defensive position.
Classic not so much.
Love the comparisons, alliance first graveyard to take VS hordes LAST graveyard to take as if its even remotely close to being equal.
Considering the only win condition in classic AV right now is killing the last boss, it isnāt very important if the strong defensive spot for either side is in the front end or back end of the defensive positions, because both have to overcome the ānear impossibleā primary defending spot for either side.
Itās only after reinforcement mechanics become a thing in TBC that it truely matters.
So horde controlling EVERYTHING in the game aside from 1 graveyard isnāt an advantage??
Man you truly are special.
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What is the win condition of 1.12 AV?
Is having the strongest defensible spot in the game right before that win condition an advantage?
Alliance complain about IBGY because horde will have 20/Rez cycle to defend it.
When horde get to the last barring factor between them and their win condition itās a 30/Rez cycle. It has the best choke point in the game. And it has easy bypassing of the primary horde push to send some people onto offense to capture things, prevent summon of ice daddy, exc.
If 20/Rez cycle is so strong, why then are you completely dismissing the 30/Rez cycle alliance have?
If the IBGY choke point is so strong, why are completely dismissing the better choke point that is the bridge?
Classic AV has one win condition. Alliance can lose everything up to that bridge and aid station and still win the game. There is no reinforcement mechanics. That is what made the cave location OP. Without reinforcement mechanics the cave location isnāt OP, you are just trying to get free wins at this point by taking away hordes strongest defensible spot while keeping yours.
If they add reinforcement mechanics, I will 100% support moving the cave. But thatās not the version of AV that we have.
We donāt want the cave moved, we want it so no one can Rez at the cave unless they control no other graveyard.
Sorry but having a Rez advantage thatās 3x the other factions at the other factions FIRST objective is a lot better than having a defensive advantage at your last graveyard.
Itās true the current win rates are lopsided during non-AV weekends because a bunch of ranking, honor hungry horde whoāve queued all day are being matchmade against undergeared rep farmers and caving in their skulls.
But when this win rate imbalance is represented across all regions during AV weekend, when players of all disparate skill and gear levels on both factions are playing each other, it points to systemic map imbalance. People are quick to mention Alliance leeches and afkers. But players on Horde, even rankers who could probably contribute the most, have become complacent about winning every game. Multiple people in my guild alone are hitting exalted on underleveled alts for Godās sake.
I say this as someone whoās ranked to 13 on my Warrior and has never played Alliance above level 2 in Classic.
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But itās not like itās a Horde disadvantage. That was the Alliance premades (fixed). That was Alliance cave camping (fixed).
No, they arenāt going to fix this because theyāre disgustingly biased.
Thank you, Iāve been trying to get this point across.
Itās not just about all the other factors (yes they may push it from 90-95% to 95-99% win rates).
The first issue which causes the main imbalance that cascades into others is the fact that the hordeās defensive position is far too strong with the cave GY being the 2nd GY behind IB GY.
If somebody (blue post or anybody else) can tell us how exactly alliance is supposed to attack IB GY in an equal matchup, Iām all ears.
FW GY and RH make no sense as the first point of attack because itās too easy for horde to just take SH GY/SF GY and wipe alliance back to SP GY if they try to extend that deep into horde territory.
And I just donāt see the strategy that takes IB GY right now unless horde plays lazy and forgets to defend IB GY. A strategy based on the other team forgetting to defend a key position is a fig leaf.
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Not to mention that the horde basically get SFGY, SH bunker, and a bunch of named alliance NPCs for free just due to where the two teams initially clash. If the teams met in the middle of the field of strife then the alliance would have a shot at defending some of those. It would also give them a chance at defending the summon spot for the forest lord.
There are just too many problems with AV for any sane alliance to go in and try to win. So you end up with the ones who are watching a movie while they play and hitting the space bar to stay in the BG. You want alliance to participate more? Make it worth the effort, give them a chance to win without having to completely outplay the other team by a mile to get anywhere.
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Heaven forbid contesting the horde going for objectives?
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If you took IBGY and couldnāt progress past then yes, that makes sense. Otherwise cave spawn is largely irrelevant.
Iām just hoping that the reason those were dealt with quickly (as was something like the DB back door jump or Prospector/Drek solo pulls) was because they were easy to see. All of those things were obvious problems.
The cave respawn is a āhardā problem to see unless explained in terms of how player flows work (i.e. death - respawn - return to battlefield).
Itās pretty clear now that the cave respawn is a huge problem for alliance to generate any offense because of how quickly 15-20 horde can respawn nearby and continuously attack IB GY over a 5 minute span. I hope that now that the respawn problem is fully explained we can see Blizzard take action to fix it.
The IBGY/SHGY situation isnāt hard to see though. The cave res situation might be harder to see as it doesnāt really appear until alliance are actually trying to defend IBGY after a soft cap.
But there are other solutions like simply opening a second path south on the west of the map opposite SHGY, eliminating the IWB choke.
Yeah, I just made this thread mainly to raise the visibility on the cave respawn issue.
Thereās been so many āAlliance are losing 90-99% of AVsā threads that donāt really cut to the heart of the issue.
The main reasons are the cave respawn and then the first battle positioning with horde starting at Bal when alliance is near SH GY.
If those are solved then I donāt think anything has to be done about IWB choke. If alliance is getting choked north of IWB with those 2 issues fixed, then itās just a worse team that lost a lot of battles in the middle of the map.
Just because I think we see a meta more of alliance staying as a group until they hit IB GY with 30+ and being able to keep at least 20-25 of those up. The rest would work to stall on defense after respawning at SP GY so getting choked isnāt a major issue per se. Theyād eventually be your last line of defense on the bridge.
Basically, Iād sort of just like to see how things play out if those 2 issues get fixed first.
How are they getting those things āfor freeā, if you are there fighting alongside them, and your GY is literally steps away? The problem is that you lot refuse to acknowledge that those very things are your advantages in that initial clash. They are literally elites fighting along side you.
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