If you have both GYs the horde are at a disadvantage. The dreaded “cave rez” is a sign of a good alliance team keeping the horde in front of them and dealing with any stragglers and back caps as necessary.
Its not easy to deal with but its not meant to be. Just ask the horde what its like to try and take SHGY with an active 30+ alliance doin everything they can to stop them. Some AVs are super long because it takes the horde 45 minutes or more to crack SHGY.
The better team wins /shrug
We don’t discuss strategy with master general Ziryus. And don’t get me started on his under leveled Lt. Bodicca.
Good thing you realized not to discuss what you don’t understand.
Quick. Describe scorched earth to me.
Horde holding all southern objectives and pushing north.
Quick describe an actual effective counter that’s not just RNG into a much better team. I’ll even give you a hint, SFGY isn’t it.
Take SFGY and slowly matriculate south. Report all the AFKers until they get banned.
Nope you still have to be able to beat the cave rez to do that.
Both teams have a cave rez. Its okay for the horde to defend theirs with 30 people when you show up to IBGY with 30 people.
As has been explained to you multiple times, matriculating south means going objective to objective and holding SFGY is precisely how you overcome the cave rez because the speed for you to get back to defend your soft capped IBGY is faster from SFGY than it is for the cave rezzers to traverse the same distance. Furthermore if you hold both SFGY and SHGY, you can move some reinforcements from SHGY to IBGY to maintain the hold.
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But hey, I should definitely take lessons on alliance strategy from a guy who has made it a point to not join AV for the last 10 months or so.
The best AV wins Ive been apart of have involved taking and holding both SF and SH GYs.
Except SFGY does not counter the cave rez. Sure you get a slightly faster run to IBGY than from SHGY or a very tiny bit faster the cave but you are still dealing with 20 horde rez vs 10 alliance.
And that is far more significant, which is why even in the best case scenario where alliance have completely wiped horde north before pushing IBGY and can focus solely on IBGY it’s still a struggle to actually hard cap it.
Right so you RNG’d into a vastly better team, which gasp has always been acknowledged as a win condition for alliance.
you like this 20 vs 10 rez thing. you like math. hard facts are tough though. If you are rocking horde where they are rezzing 20 and my 10 get back to IBGY 1 minute faster than the Horde 20 do, eventually you overrun it with numbers. But you knew that right?
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And since you clearly aren’t going to understand without a breakdown:
40 on 40 IBGY (never happens, but hey, whatevs). Horde lost 20 and Alliance lost 10 in that first encounter. Horde have 20 defending, Alliance have 30 attacking. How many Horde die before those 20 horde get back? How many Alliance die? That’s the entire idiocy of your 20>10 statement. 30>20 which means Horde probably loses at least 10 before the 20 come riding in. Alliance lose 5. But they get 10 reinforcements 1 minute before Horde gets 20 reinforcements. That puts us at 40-20 for a full minute assuming zero losses and 35-10 for a whole minute assuming the losses above. And we end up at 35-30 by the time Horde reinforces. But hey, keep telling me that rez advantage from SFGY doesn’t compound.
By your own logic that means the horde RNG’d into a vastly better team which helps them win - duhh. Map theory is debunked once again and this time by Zir.
The horde are better at AV. Its okay to admit it. I have. Now Im free to enjoy myself in any way that I can.
I lucked out just a little while ago and got into a great team which had a couple of those annoying LT defenders on it. We destroyed them easily - easiest win Ive ever had - near perfect. Very enjoyable. Didnt even need SF.
It’s been explained how horde eventually get the upper hand, but yeah, alliance can take SF just rarely in the initial push. We have to wipe horde just to get to the ramp and our rezzers risk an AS rez which essentially takes them out of play.
SF can be beneficial, but more often than not, it’s not because it puts horde rezzers at IBGY so taking IBGY means wiping rez waves to soft cap and dealing with the cave spawn to hold.
If you think SHGY is hard to take when alliance rez there and defend, you should try to take IBGY when horde are doing the same there.
IBGY is more beneficial to alliance because it gives us a spawn close to two towers we’re trying to burn for one thing. It also gives us access to the southern part of the map without having to get through a choke.
There is not a “best strat” for alliance in AV. I’ve been part of groups who’ve tried many different strats, most that fail at a much higher rate than the cubby strat has. That could change by the time I go back next AV weekend. Who knows.
The other issue they’re ignoring is that SFGY has to be taken without letting SHGY soft cap. So similar issue to trying to take IBGY but for less gain.
And oddly enough, if we manage to hold SHGY and assault IBGY, we rez at SHGY, not AS. We can control SHGY when assaulting SF and still rez at AS.
This is ridiculous. We aren’t playing back in Vanilla where the typical Alliance strategy was to split the Horde rez locations and then rush IBGY. If we were, Alliance might have some successes to point to using that strategy. One thing you conveniently neglect with your point regarding the split forces is why Alliance want that split. The reason why they want that split is because it provides the illusion of a fast game. “Horde already have SFGY so now they are split up in their rezzes. Surely we can rush IBGY now and proceed to victory quickly.” Unfortunately, Horde don’t play AV in Classic the way they did in Vanilla, so this strategy does not work.
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Which brings me right back to SFGY. You need to take SFGY. Then assault the towers and Galv while also pushing IBGY. The assaults on the towers and Galv aren’t necessarily intended to succeed. They are intended to split forces. You know that straggler Hordie that you just killed because he ran too close to the towers after seeing the warning? Yeah, that’s one less Hordie holding IBGY. And please, don’t talk to me about “now we have to go through the IBGY to take IBGY.” You mean like Horde have to go through 30+ defending at SHGY to take it? It is literally the same fight, but reversed. Alliance don’t see it that way because as a whole you ignore your best strategy and then shrug with “well, there is no best strategy” even though there very clearly is one.
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Fact is, taking SFGY is slow. It will always lead to a 45+ minute game. Without exception. Contrast this with IBGY. If you get it and are better than Horde, you will win quickly. If you don’t and Horde repel, you can choose to milk rep or /afk. There is no investment in the game using that strategy. SFGY, however, is a long game that requires investment to finish. Straight up, your queues inhibit how frequently players will be willing to make this investment. So no, don’t talk to me about there being “no best strat” Alliance side. There is. It doesn’t fit the goals of the core player base.
And just so we are crystal clear, if they were to fix the SFGY rez bug this map would be very close assuming Alliance actually tried to take SFGY.
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Furthermore, if the queues were reversed and Alliance had the time investment for the long game, SFGY would 100% be the strategy employed by the Alliance. It would probably net a 70% win rate even with the SFGY bug not fixed. Why? Because Hordies would be whining and complaining that Alliance drags the games out too long. The same issues we see Alliance side would be seen Horde side. I don’t typically pull the “I know this because that’s how it was in Vanilla” card, but in this case I know this because that’s how it was in Vanilla. My server had fast Horde queues. Guess which side lost most games on this exact same map? Why? Because Horde would leave at the first sign that Alliance were going to make it a long game. It is the nature of AV. It always has been.
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Edit: And to be even more clear. That doesn’t mean I am against changes or want free wins or whatever. I want changes. This map desperately needs them. I am just sick of the whole “woe is me” trash I see a bunch of people post.
One thing you conveniently forget to mention is that you do not and cannot speak for alliance as a whole. Many alliance want IBGY to prevent the IWB choke farm. We need a southern gy to prevent that and IBGY is a better tactical position due spawn distance to towers and not being behind a choke. What alliance even think a fast game is possible this late into this trash map?
If horde are not rezzing at IBGY, it is easier to take. I’ve said this so many times already. The only way to stop a horde SF rez is to take it before it hard caps or give up SHGY to push their rez there. We can shift the horde rez from IBGY to SF without giving up SHGY.