Here’s AV data from 2011
Here’s AV data from 2014 (The only map changes that took place between 2011-2014 were to benefit horde - removing snowmound at FW and closing the gap in the fence at FWK in patch 5.4.7 February 18, 2014)
So no, AV has not been “dominated” by alliance post Wrath in retail. There was definitely a long stretch that alliance held an ~80% win rate, but alliance have struggled in AV since the release of Legion.
And none of that makes the current map any more fair, because it’s not. It’s the worst iteration we could have been given and we should all be insulted that Blizzard thinks that’s okay.
1 Like
After reading a few of his replies and posts I can clearly understand he has no idea what he’s talking about, tbh it just sounds like he’s using regurgitated information he heard from someone.
Any depth of research shows the opposite of what he suggests.
Even doing AV and being completely oblivious to PvP, after about 20 games you can clearly see why Alliance don’t make it south, even if they cap IBGY.
It’s really not hard to understand why or rather how the horde cave impacts the game VS the alliance cave position.
Every game is cap SHGY then go recap IBGY if they have it by just using the cave rez, after you retake IBGY the games over. Get bat riders up and Lok and they all aid in the push north.
By the time Alliance can finally get South after we have capped SPGY they can either defend Aid station which does nothing for them, or finally get South and try to get any form of rep from AV before we finish.
3 Likes
It is absolutely not fun to play this map as alliance for reasons that have been explained to him, and the handful that still argue the map isn’t the problem, over and over.
It’s a horrible map design that should have never existed and I think anyone with any common sense knows that if it had played out in vanilla like it’s playing in classic, changes would have been made to this map.
1 Like
I’ll list one, but you won’t care.
They made horde towers archers smart enough to actually follow alliance into the flag room of the tower, which means they had to either kill them, have someone else keep it busy, or drop aggro with vanish,FD, exc.
But you will dismiss it and not care anyway so I won’t go into the other changes.
So, using data for AV maps that are not 1.12 is your argument of the 1.12 map not being balanced.
Even then using your data alliance hit almost an 80% win rate on a map they had 54% winrate when the only changes supposedly only benefited horde. Somehow after changes that only helped horde were made alliance got an even higher win rate.
It’s almost like player behavior of horde giving up gave alliance a higher win rate. Oh wait, that’s what alliance are doing in classic AV. And that was a jump of about 25% for alliance even with buffs to horde.
Hmmm.
It’s almost like player behavior toward AV had a bigger impact than the map did.
Sounds kind of familiar, classic something something alliance giving up…
Hmmm.
In the text of the thing he linked.
" These numbers come from a character’s statistics pane, so any bugs with character statistics will have skewed the results. This means that there isn’t any way for us to verify how accurate these numbers are, so do not take them as fact."
Also notice how horde literally won every other BG aside from isle and AV, I bet the meta was still rushing.
That’s just a guess tho, I don’t recall them AVs, that was a very long time ago.
Also the change you linked is the reason horde couldn’t win? Because tower archers wouldn’t shoot Alliance thru terrain??
I have a hard time believing anything that hasn’t been redone, as classic proves, we didn’t know anything.
In all my years of wow, I have never seen the cave rez be used like this, and I’m sure you could say the same thing.
Maybe I’m not smart enough, but I can’t think of a strat on how a full alliance team can beat an equal horde team if horde use the cave rez to recap IBGY. I just can’t see how alliance would out reinforce IBGY all the way from SPGY. If you think Alliance should hold SHGY and IBGY, then you should expect horde to do the same, yet they don’t need to because the cave rez.
3 Likes
I’ve given ways to help alliance beat the cave. The answer has been “we shouldn’t have to do that to win!”
And the cave was used this way in vanilla on occasion, and when horde did play that way we (I was alliance at the time) countered it with the same plays I’ve been telling you to do.
But you don’t want to put any effort in.
If alliance didn’t give up when horde soft cap SPGY they could easily take it back considering they have the same advantage in Rez cycle your complaining about for IBGY except their cave is even closer and if alliance die at the other side of bridge toward ASGY they have a Rez cycle of +10 there. Resulting in a 30 Rez cycle from closer to SPGY from both the GY and cave Rez than horde cave Rez puts horde for IBGY.
You have map advantages but it’s not worth the long games for you because your ques are so short. So as a whole alliance give up and chose to lose fast at that point to get into the next game.
SFGY needs it’s Rez lines adjusted for alliance to not out alliance at ASGY when they die there without it hard capped. But both teams have a cave advantage. Alliance chosing to not use theirs because it would cause a long game isn’t the maps fault.
Since alliance like to use quick math here’s an example
Alliance soft cap IBGY, they now have to deal with potentially 20 horde Rez per cycle from a cave that is somewhat close.
Horde soft cap SPGY, they now have to deal with potentially 30 Rez per cycle from a cave that is super close and a GY that is somewhat close.
But alliance never use this advantage because the game would be longer and usually about half of the alliance team gives up when SPGY gets soft capped. Yet this is when alliance are at their strongest in the Rez cycle game. Let alone the fact the alliance seem to have at least 1/4 of their team afk or leaching every game from my experience…
But none of this matter because map unfair, no fault for alliance, all map fault…
Your strats are nothing more than theory craft.
Horde strat: zerg SH GY till it caps.
Thats it, anyone can see that if you have to implement and create different strategies for one side to overcome the imbalances and the other side has one strat that has a 99% success rate then things are not balanced.
1 Like
Comparing SP GY to IB GY is not the same, our “advantage” is at our last GY, by the time we are defending that it’s too late, perhaps we should win the game with our bridge “advantage”.
Nope it must be the players right?
1 Like
The flaw in your argument is the positions and whats at play currently.
Alliance cant take and keep IBGY, EVER, if horde go back and defend it. They could push you back from Aid Station all the way back to shgy and then into IBGY, they would still need to take IBGY to push south.
After Alliance gets to use their cave as you say, the game is at its end, they can either defend the bridge which is hard because i believe if they die at SPGY they rez at their cave, so they actually go in the opposite direction, but im sure youre going to tell them they should watch where they die? As if you suggesting that doesnt show you a massive disparity. You have to realize what youre suggesting VS what us as horde have to do.
Horde also control all the map when Alliance are at their advantage, im willing to bet us horde have bat riders up and Lok to help us push into their base, now im not sure how you would rate Lok and Bat Riders but to me its a massive advantage for our push.
You shouldnt expect the other faction to do 3x more than what we as horde have to do to win the same exact game.
It would be like us playing Chess and telling the Alliance they only have The King and all their Pawns, while horde have their king, HALF as many pawns but they have the queen,both rooks, both knights and both bishops, then telling the Alliance they can win because their pawns can turn into TWICE as many Queens as the horde can get, they just need to get them all the way across the board.
The chess scenario came out because i just started watching The Queens Gambit on Netflix, and its amazing so far.
3 Likes
It’s great seeing a hordie being actually logical about it.
This other kid has 500+ posts in this thread alone giving alliance a 10 step hilarious game plan to overcome this broken map while all horde have to do is zerg shgy.
Best bet at this point is report this clown for trolling. He’s provided nothing remotely productive and has said the same nonsense 500 times. Report n get him out of here so sensible people can discuss things.
6 Likes
Nah, just ignore. I did it and it’s made my forum experience much better. People have to really do some terrible things to get a ban from here, ignoring them does the same and is a lot easier.
is horde still going to play AV as much when they lose their free win in tbc?
2 Likes
Even if it’s 2.4 version yes they’ll still play, SHGY still gives horde a good edge it’s just not nearly as bad as right now.
You mean the horde priest alt who has a main on alliance?
Hmmm. Look at his post history he calls out that this horde toon is his alt and his main is alliance in another thread.
The purpose is to wipe as many horde as possible when SFGY caps with as few casualties as possible. This causes the most horde to spawn at SF and makes capping IBGY possible.
You realize you’re a level 10 retail toon.
Which is also an alliance race…
1 Like
Sure that’s the purpose but what actually happens in reality is horde res 10 from ib and 10 from sf then overwhelm sh.
Your hiding behind an alt after your claimed to be leaving and going to shadowlamds and wouldn’t look back at classic.
Got tired of posting on your gnome mage?
Your being dishonest about who you are to make it seem like there is more support for your view and your letting people believe your a horde main in classic.
I don’t hide that I main horde and have not been intentionally dishonest by alt hopping. I post on one character for the forums. You however are using at least 2 in this forum. Likely more.
I’m not hiding by anything if I was hiding I would have deleted all the posts that tie me to my mage.
You’re acting like you just invented looking at someone’s Post history.
I’m allowed to post on whoever I want it’s my character.
The only person here who’s actually hiding is you.
what’s truly funny is you’re hiding behind a retail character that has all your achievements or I should say lack of achievements yet you’re too afraid to post on an actual classic character I’m curious as to why.
I’m also currently horde in retail and classic now. So I was posting on a character that shows my faction.