Warriors are also hybrids by Blizzard’s definition at the time (which never really changed afterward). If you want to pull that card they also need nerfs based on their shadowmourne DPS potential.
100%
And when ret has to use their utility, they are well below in dps. That is the trade off.
Gotta cast cleanse a lot? Bottom dps.
Gotta take DSAC? Bottom dps.
Gotta bubble sac the tank? Bottom dps.
Dude it doesn’t need to be the same as it was originally class balance wise. All that needs to not change is the content and the mechanical style the game has. You didn’t mind qol changes but balance changes are no good? Spoiled little baby
Talks about crying babies in crying baby language. Fail fits your name
Funny thing is that the buffs to ret bring us closer to the original DPS pole positions than they were at.
Modern optimized play left ret faaaar behind.
Even back then, ret wouldn’t have been left alone if it ever dipped that low. It was intended to be a high DPS spec.
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yes i’m failure for playing bliztard trash games 
at least i’m aware of it but can’t leave the addiction “blizzard games are harder than drugs”
LMAO keep paying for trash. You are special
Some of you need to stop playing wow sims and take your blood pressure medication.
And then realize that blizz may balance over real raid data, and not sims. They have plenty of data from, the raids that took place on ptr these past 2 testing phases and if they look at that data (The data that matters) ret is not too high.
It’s even debatable if ret is too high in full bis. It’s at the end of the game, in a raid that paladins are supposed to excel against undead creatures.
If ret was running away with first place like DK was, 10+% points above the next highest, then I could see removing the buff.
Way to double down the seriousness I was mocking lol. Both sides of the argument need to relax smoke some weed and actually play the game for awhile.
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This would be great, but people need to be here to shut down their false narrative so blizzard doesn’t take them seriously.
That’s implying blizzard reads the forums.
I don’t think the devs read the forums, but the CMs like Kaivax do, and they will always forward important topics to the devs.
Ah yep, what nerfs did Ret cop since Ulduar?
I would note that all specs are in a different place due to 3.3.5 balancing. There are lists a lot of classes can roll out for nerfs over WotLK, or buffs I guess for Aff Lock’s case.
I want the OG wrath with #nochanges duh, thats why Ret should be a top 5 dps class the entire expansion.
You know what, I’ll use your numbers. An OG Wrath with #nochanges would see Rets ~900 dps below Fury, I guess it’s just rolling back the glyph rather than the SoV changes then?
You lump us in with them like you don’t already know they are 500-1000 dps higher than us, and literal top dps instead of top 5.
Feral is worse for sure, but they both opened up a can of worms that is better left closed.
Why? What is the problem, why does it matter if it’s Fire or Fury or Aff or Ret or Smite priest who in the top 5 dps?
Either balance the game or don’t, buffing 2 specs and having them be so high up is pretty terrible. I think they both lack the resources to effectively balance Classic as well as it’s better to be left alone, lest more of these godforsaken threads pop up.
There are no complaint threads about where Fire Mages are looking to end up, that’s pretty telling isn’t it?
Why should Warriors have gotten help? Explain to me how you guys are in the same situation as Ret, as class that did very high DPS all expansion long, then in wrath classic is destined to be bottom dps all expansion long with no intervention.
Yeah dude, it’s pretty optimal design to have all warriors/hunters have more or less the same population as Ret Pallies, just peak changes for representation. Did you ever get around to addressing why dual spec was so requested if every DPS player can’t flex to tank or heal specs to get into groups?
You guys are literally going to be doing right around the same dps as us in ICC, and you have already been doing the same or more DPS than us since you passed us in early p2 / late p1!! POST BUFF !! Even now you outDPS!
Warriors started below Ret in Naxx, it took about a month for the 99 and 95th percentile Fury to scale above the same for Ret. This repeated again when Ret got buffed in Ulduar and Fury needed gear to outscale it.
The scaling dream held by the devs for warriors really is a meme when classes just get buffed to match Fury.
and you guys just wanna get buffed into #1 like you are owed it or something.
Where exactly have I advocated for Warrior buffs?
It’s pretty lame that Fiery got nerfed when Felstriker is apparently fine. Or that Armor Pots were nerfed for very little discernable reason. Fury sure was doing well when Blizzard decided to roll those ones out.
When Blizzard wanted to remove bearweaving they ended up giving Feral a 10%~ buff even over perfect play, sure is interesting to see the different approaches between that and Fiery.
If anyone was owed the buff, it was us, because of how playing on this patch specifically screwed over Retribution as a class
You did get a buff dude, what the hell are you on about?
No, actually, you really can’t say this about that many other specs/tiers/raids. Can you name a few then? What specs went from top dps to bottom dps from OG to classic?
Do you think Naxx balance in Classic looked anything like it did in Wrath?
The point is, you either accept the game is going to be different, and accept that class balance is on the table, or you appeal to an older standard and invoke #nochanges, in which case Retribution would need to be restored to it’s proper glory. Either way you slice that, Ret is meant to be a high DPS class this expansion.
Or I accept that players are better and classes will end up in different positions relative to 2010 because of different theorycrafting and knowledge? Where exactly must I accept that class balance changes (well, 2 specs out of 30) as part of this?
Or I use what Blizzard actually said when they buffed Ret pallies? Tell me how a buff implemented when Ret was down near Arms should have the same (or greater) magnitude now that Ret’s right up the top? If you think it’s reasonable for Ret to get buffed to their relative position at the time do you then think Fury warriors or Rogues should also be buffed?
Do you see why some players may consider the Ret and Feral changes to be incredibly arbitrary in the absence of any other real class balance? Can you understand why players might not enjoy this style of balancing unless they happen to benefit from it?
They are, but they largely stayed appropriately clustered together once we got out of Naxx. Ret was the only outlier as a PvE DPS spec that would have stayed noticeably behind the curve of every other class.
All together the changes are a bit over 1k, like 1.2-1.5k if you also include the changes to hammer of wrath in Naxx.
That’s a pretty huge difference though, given how close the majority of DPS specs are in damage.
Well, there wasn’t a need for any other balancing changes.
In Ulduar, by the time they decided to do balancing adjustments, only ret was behind the way it was. Moving forward, only ret would have stayed noticeably behind. There was no other major balancing problem to solve. Warriors were lower/mid tier in Ulduar and get better over time without intervention.
Ret was the only spec that didn’t have an alternative DPS option that was part of the rest of the pack. Waiting would not have fixed that. The buffs fixed that.
Mages never lacked a viable DPS spec.
This is why hunter/rogue/warlock/mage are supposed to be higher DPS than the classes that can do this. The value doesn’t need to be large though. They just can’t be near the bottom because then the entire class disappears in raiding.
Blizz didn’t nail that part in wrath, mostly because of hunters, and I’m not sure what’s going on with ICC rogues.
Yeah, but you are looking at it strictly in the context of how in compared to ret when the important piece is how it compares to the rest of the DPS.
Fury started lowest and way below the pack in Naxx, moved to bottom of the pack (and lower middle by the end) in Ulduar, is pretty firmly middle in ToGC, and in ICC is upper mid until shadowmourne brings them to one of the best.
That’s not “meme scaling,” that’s a DPS spec that is viable since phase 2 and continues improving. You don’t stack fury warriors, but that’s not the goal for any of the specs.
Meme scaling is what people call Ret’s “you are going to be great in ICC even without buffs!” Sure, if you consider last place by a noticeable margin “great.”
Yep, all of that was kind of lame. (Although warriors would probably be mad if deep wounds still worked with spells because your BiS neck isn’t in game anymore, and you would have needed to farm it like, 3 years ago before you knew it was good, and kept it)
That would be another reason to be grumpy about warrior sims… “Yeah, but you can’t count that, it includes blazefury medallion!”
Once you start accepting that things are different today than back then, it’s hard to justify leaving class tuning numbers the same “because that’s what they were back then.”
We still never got the final number tunings for Ulduar, the gear is weirdly inflated in there and is messing with BiS lists. Boss damage and health values in there were tweaked.
When blizz is adjusting literally every other aspect of the game in terms of number tuning, how does it make sense to be hands off on noticeable class balancing issues when blizz is largely skewing the game harder which puts a stronger focus on those class balance flaws, which weren’t visible back then to be addressed.
For both fury and ret it’s not the best form to be looking at their Shadowmourne DPS values on sims as where the spec will be. The things are going to take at least 2 months to get each, which means most rets and furies won’t be right up at the top.
If you kick ret down because you don’t think they should be near the top with shadowmourne, you are kicking ret down to a position where you just don’t bring them because they now need a legendary to be playable (which requires carrying them for at least 2 months while they build it)
Warrior doesn’t have that problem in ICC.
No other class has that problem. They are part of the pack of DPS without the need of external buffs OR a legendary.
Feral, yes… the buff wasn’t even intentional, and they backed off on fixing their mistake because they did it badly the first time.
That spec was not in a position that needed the buffs it got.
(I don’t care that they fixed the rotation, the spec just didn’t need a giant buff on top of that, shaving about 5% off of them like blizz tried to do but backed off would put their DPS right along the rest of the good end game specs)
Ret was really the only spec that needed buffs so that the class had a viable PvE DPS option, and that still holds true in ICC.
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Good sir I must disagree, if one class needs gear just to be as viable and needed as one class then it is meme scaling, viable and wanted are two very different things, with or with out the paladin buffs, rets were both wanted and viable. For example arms, bm hunter- viable sure, but is it wanted? no, not even close. Paladins offer, three very much needed and wanted buffs. Sure fury is viable but any Joe would take a good ret,combat,survival,fire mage,frost dk over a good fury. As for how each respective class and spec will do in ICC, we don’t know, don’t cite sims cause they are not accurate or reliable, we will see when ICC drops, but one thing is 100% guaranteed, paladins will be having a field day.
Nope on both counts. By the start of Ulduar, rets were one of the most benched specs as guilds approached hard mode content… right up there with frost mage, sub rogue, and BM hunter.
Ret is a DPS spec, it has to do competitive DPS to be wanted, especially when every buff it brings can be brought by other specs that perform their role better.
Without the buffs, ret isn’t best at anything, and thus is easily benched.
At least with the buffs, they became the best source of 3% damage for your raid.
Mate that’s just not true.
I can attest that it is true. Rets were being sat on dps checks like Iron Council and Hodir for prog.
Pals still had the best buffs in the game and the most useful imo.