I’m not trying to be obtuse. I’m mainly coming from the perspective of being confused why people keep saying they want garrote to apply the mark. Ambush applying it to me is fine, the real issue (imho) is that we lost dance and a second vanish was a piss poor replacement.
I also don’t even understand what you are upset about. Ambush…doesn’t have to be used first? Can we start over and you explain what the problem is from your perspective?
Because it’s shoehorning in an ability that Assassination doesn’t organically use. It’s adding rotational complexity that feels bad when the mechanic can just as easily be designed to apply to the main target of the garrote.
And this isn’t even into the problem of having to be applied from stealth on anything that isn’t a raid or dungeon boss.
Last i checked the mark had to be applied from the first ambush outta stealth. So in order to use it, youd have to have ambush available while coming outta stealth which is really only the first gcd if you dont have subterfuge (second vanish is practically useless cause vanish will always be on cd. Youre not building up that second charge when its on a 2 min cd)
On that note, second vanish talent wouldnt be as bad if it reduced vanish cd by at least 25% like DH brand capstone does
It says “Ambush from stealth…”
it says nothing about it needing to be first. Nor is there anything here to point us toward thinking subterfuge wouldn’t work as described, allowing things to work as if…you guessed it…“from stealth.”
We get 6 whole seconds to work in ONE ambush per trash pack. After the initial mark, it’s re-applied by 5pt finishers. So what’s the problem?
I think we need Dance back. Cause the problem to me is what happens when you aren’t fighting inconsequential trash? You have to burn a vanish charge, and we just don’t have enough to be practical. But I really don’t see the issue with ambush being the applicator.
I am telling you we aint taking subterfuge just for an extra 3-6 seconds to use Ambush. So yes it will be your first ability in the vast majority of scenarios as only the first gcd is given stealth effects.
“We?”
You maybe, but I cannot fathom playing sin without subterfuge. I can see now why you’d be upset, but have to ask…why don’t you just keep subterfuge?
Subterfuge is a dead talent with the pre-patch changes. Haven’t you noticed that Improved Garrote, Shrouded Suffocation and Indiscriminate Carnage were all changed to 6 sec out of stealth…without taking Subterfuge at all.
Skilling into Subterfuge does nothing for Assa due to these changes. Together with extremely bad Soothing Darkness it is wasted three points to get to the questionable value of a 2nd Vanish.
And taking Subterfuge just for Ambush flexibility out of stealth is nonsense. Ambush is weak, gives less combo points than Mutilate, less poison application chances than Mutilate and does not help with the bleed opener ramp up. Ambush is just bad as Assa.
I have, but for what I’m playing with friends (blitz’s) the ability to CS over 6 seconds is still enough to make it mandatory.
I can see how it would be much worse now if you’re a pve player, but for PvP, I don’t really see much of an issue (although I’m just a casual so shrug).
Seems like you answered your own question. PvP doesn’t follow the same rules as PvE. Talents don’t have to be good for all types of content. And that’s ok.
Well even in PVP you want to be opening with garrote, cheap or Mutilate as Assassination. Opening with Ambush for Assassination in PVP is very eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. Sure you can do it, but whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy??
It is like Sub opening from stealth with gloomblade/Backstab in PVE or PVP. Sure you can do it but why?
So the hero talent tree Deathstalker needs a lot of work for Assassination.
Simple solution is to remove the “from stealth” restriction.
Something else Blizzard could do is allow Blindside to trigger Subterfuge. This could have some interesting game play interaction with talents like Improved Garrote, Shrouded Suffocation and Indiscriminate Carnage.
The whole problem is having key talents that require stealth and not having reasonable access to stealth. The whole spec no longer has any synergy.
Blindside triggering subterfuge would be chef’s kiss.
If Blizzard insist on using Ambush for the mark, which I think they do for whatever reason, then Ambush needs to be buffed into a real Ambush-like ability that catches your opponents off guard.
Ambush from stealth: Substantially more dmg than Mutilate + Improved Garrote + 2 target spread through Indiscriminate Carnage
Ambush activated by Blindside: Comparable dmg to Mutilate + Improved Garrote (reduce the rate of Blindsides accordingly to compensate for Improved Garrote application)
Doesn’t help in world pve either. Fighting an elite as an assassin np. The adds come in and um…well…target each one put your bleeds and poisons on them. before you could just hit shadowdance and reapply everything at once. Extra vanish in this situation doesn’t help but reset the battle.
I don’t have skin in the game here but as an average player I never liked subterfuge when I was dabbling in rogue. It’s great for subtlety but didn’t feel right for assassination and especially outlaw.
Subterfuge has always been an important tool for all 3 of us. We aren’t warriors or dks. Ambush does solid damage on beta (depending how someone talents).
Assassination hitting hard with vicious venom’s (ambush / mut even 1/2 is nice) and laying down fattttt envenoms literally is exciting to see (deathstalker or fatebound works well) . Assassination can do comparable ambush damage. 2/2 is costly but its because it really is a freaking nuke especially as a target is shived or zoldyck gets a hold of that poor soul.
Outlaw slapping the crap out of stuff and gaining armor pen back through fatebound is satisfying on beta, trickster lays down the law too for hard hitting stuff outside of bte. Dispatch definitely does pull its weight and ambushes and sinister strikes can get pretty mean.
Hyperfixation with stealth has only been a dumb problem since legion. We are returning to dealing some decent damage out of dance again finally as Subtlety. We are nudged in a good direction and it is very welcomed. Us Subtlety have solid options moving forward as well.
Also: cloud cover is cool to use as a new version of smokebomb but the choice node no scruples also feels nice via 10% crit. Both are fun but I def like the cloud cover for multi uses and creativity.
It does, it deals heavy 890-950k hits during burst on beta (without zoldyck active). Yes that is 2/2 vicious venoms and going down left side and middle.
1/2 V.V. Hits pretty dang hard and while shived definitely makes it back into a lethal hit for Assassins on beta. Mutilate also does some solid damage when you count up all the different ways to make it effective.
Does it, though? Or is it just relatively more (lvl 80, higher iLvl etc.) to current power levels?
Anyways, this does not change the current poor design that Deathstalker is, like…
I’m repeating myself, this Hero tree has been designed by people that play/know other specs and only seldomly play rogue, if at all, and more or less know the class from the papers.
That the mark/capstone loop in its first iteration didn’t even work with Subtlety skill mechanics is pretty telling about the design process.