Arms Warriors & Class Dev Power Creep


#1

TL;DR: Arms Warriors do NOTHING better than a DEMON HUNTER, and it’s bad for the game.

Also Arms Warriors need major revisions / buffs to it’s output and class role / class fantasy.

Long version: This applies to all Warrior specs (as well as DKs and to a lesser extent rogues / feral druids), but I’ll focus this thread on Arms as it is the spec that drew the shortest straw when the game moved from Legion to BfA.

Let’s begin by studying a Warrior’s strengths and weaknesses, and comparing them to the ‘new and improved’ melee class DEMON HUNTER:

  • (Flavor) Master of Weapons & armor

Demon Hunters kind of win this one because they don’t even need to swap their weapons between DPSing and tanking, while a fury warrior can’t even transmog one handers…

This is a very subjective thing and I know it’s not important to many people, but when my MASTER OF ARMS class can only use ONE weapon type effectively, it makes me incredibly sad.

  • Highest armor / highest health / formidable defensive abilities

This is a common RPG trope for a ‘fighter’ type class. Let’s review:

Talented defensive stance, no self healing, medicore 2 minute parry cooldown…

VS

100% uptime 10/20% leech, ability to completely dodge an ability with demon form, evasion / shield wall in one ability on a 1m cooldown, Darkness…

How is this supposed to be fair? Warriors do have a tiny, tiny tiny tiny bit more HP, but they still lose on effective HP due to just how easily a demon hunter can stack their defensives with their leech to heal up mid battle.

  • Mobility

Warrior isn’t a low mobility class, but it simply loses to Demon Hunter in this regard. Notably because charge requiring an enemy target limits its usage somewhat, while fel rush is strong in any situations that don’t involve narrow cliffs – which real world combat encounters never do.

And even if they did – hey, guess what this class needs? FREE SLOW FALL!!!

  • High melee burst damage

Again, demon hunters simply do it better… On lower cooldown… With free leech…

  • Limited to melee range / physical damage

“Hey let’s give this new fun melee class a heroic throw but make it do real damage AND make it cleave”

“Let’s also make half their damage of a type that isn’t resisted by armor”

Seriously pls buff heroic throw, the ability existing as it is is simply pathetic and not fun… Make it do SOMETHING that isn’t just poking someone for an amount of damage they can passively regen in under a second.

  • Low crowd control / group utility

Put a checkmark for Arms. All we have is a fear (which is unusable in M+ due to ninja pulling) and a small stun we can talent, but that’s effectively nothing.

Also melee range slow that costs rage and a gcd.

VS

A baseline 3s (5s in PvP) AoE stun on a relatively low cooldown; Imprison. And a slow you can talent into, that’s applied from range, to 3 targets, while doing reasonable damage, for no resource cost…


I just want to ask, how come nearly every demon hunter ability is just warrior ability but better and/or lower cooldown?

Ugh… I think I should stop here, but there’s plenty of other examples of silly design decisions that just make me as an olden time Arms Warrior player feel like my class is just not meant to be competitive any more.

There’s nothing an Arms Warrior does well enough to bring it over any other class in the game; And having most of my damage baked into auto attacks / passive bleed feels lackluster for a class that’s supposed to be all about big huge mortal strike crits.

Please Blizzard. Review & re-design Arms Warriors for the next expansion so they don’t feel like such a burden to play. I still love the class fantasy and the spell effects, but having 0 chance in duels against any other class as well as being just mediocre in PvE is not fun.


(Grim) #2

I find this post very confusing.

Before I attempt to read it again, are you talking about Vengeance vs Arms? Some of the things you seem concerned about don’t sound like Havoc.

Master of arms and armor? Havoc? Their weapons and armor are much more restricted than warriors to start with


#3

They are more limited but they’re able to use everything they can wear effectively in both specs, whereas if I’m an arms warrior with one two-hander I simply can’t play prot or fury.

It’s not a new problem, but I do distinctly remember tanking in arms spec all the way up until Cataclysm, and Fury grabbing a shield and being able to tank in a pinch for a boss-killing length of time if the real tanks died in 10-man WotlK raids.

Let’s talk simpler examples, then.

Eyebeam VS Bladestorm

Lower cooldown. Higher damage.

Yes, one can be interrupted, while the other makes you immune to just about everything that can interrupt you; But that hardly matters in 9/10 situations you’d use them (M+)

Whirlwind VS Blade Dance

Blade Dance does have a bit of a cooldown, but it also does vastly more damage; Both classes have a similar talent that turn both WW and BD into a viable single target ability, but the difference is DH talent also propells it into the skies on AOE, while casting slam on the main target is barely felt at all… (as you mostly take that talent to spend more rage for your procs)

Even if the warrior talent made whirlwind slam every target, it won’t be as good as blade dance.

Did I mention blade dance also gives 100% evasion at no extra cost? That sounds like it should be a talent, but it’s just ‘there’.

AOE fear VS AOE stun

One pulls half of the dungeon and wipes you; The other helps your group survive a tough trash situation.

I hope this made my concerns a bit clearer.


(Hellscreamer) #4

What gets me the most out of all of this is how a DH wears leather and warrior plate

Let’s make plate classes feel like plate classes again


#5

I actually think DH does a fantastic job making you feel like an agile ninja; It’s more the fact that Warriors still feel like a 2004 class trying to stay relevant in 2019.

Whereas f. example Paladins were re-worked in almost every expansion, until the point where now they’re pretty sweet to play, Warrior hasn’t really changed much in any meaningful way beyond 1) our abilities being taken away (RIP heroic strike, disarm, demo shout, opportunity strikes / sword spec, baseline spell reflection, AOE spell reflection, shield wall, shattering throw, stances, old enraged regeneration, throwdown, improved overpower, blood craze, old second wind, sunder armor…), and 2) other classes getting improved versions of them (Why wasn’t victory rush reworked into something akin to crimson vial? Why is hamstring still a thing? Why doesn’t plate armor feel like it does anything to help you survive compared to active defensives on leather melees?).

In honest truth Warriors haven’t really gained anything other than charge in combat / heroic leap / stormbolt when you compare Classic to BfA, and lost an absolute ton of useful / fun talents & abilities.

I’d argue the biggest thing Arms Warriors got since Classic was Bladestorm, and even then Blizz goes out of their way to nerf it every chance they get…