"Arms > Prot for tanking while leveling"

I’ve heard a lot of people say this, both in-game and online (like in the “Protection Warrior Leveling” section of the wowhead warrior guide), that arms warriors are better at tanking while leveling than protection warriors because they hold threat better, but after looking into the mechanics of how threat works, I have doubts. Is there something I’m missing (which is entirely possible: I’m only in my mid-40s at the moment and have been leveling as prot), or is this one of those bits of common folk wisdom that’s wrong?

Here’s an overly detailed breakdown of my analysis:

THREAT

The key to arms threat seems to be Sweeping Strikes, which every 30 seconds allows your hits to hit an addition target 5 times for 30 rage, which is awesome. Since level 40 is probably the midpoint time-wise while leveling, let’s say you’ve got a level 40 warrior decked out with AP+ gear and a Pendulum of Doom (an expensive axe with a 4s swing speed, the slowest in the game); against two average armored mobs you’ll probably do 250 a hit on average. For 30 rage, Sweeping Strikes roughly gets you an addition 5*250 or 1250 damage worth of threat. Without sweeping strikes, that same 30 rage would get you two Sunder Armors, which would generate 360 damage worth of threat (2*180 for a rank 3 SA). So having the Sweeping Strikes talent would net you 890 (1250-360) “free” threat every 30 seconds in this case.

A prot spec warrior has defiance, which ups all threat by 15%. Applying this bonus to revenge (30 rage for 6 within 30 seconds:6*235*0.15 = 211) and your auto attacks (say 60dps: 60*30*0.15 = 270) gives you a total of 490 “free” threat within that same 30 seconds, closing the arms-prot gap to 400 (890-490). Prot also has Improved Sunder Armor, lowering the cost of SA to 12: if you generate 90 rage within those 30 seconds and spend the remaining 60 on SA (4*180 for 720 threat normally, 5*180*1.15 for 1035 with prot talents) you’d get 315 free threat. These two prot talents alone would net you 832 “free” threat under these circumstances.

Besides Sweeping Strikes, I see talents that boost crit damage, though if you’re decked out in agi+ gear, axe specialization, and drop 5 points into cruelty, you’ll get your crit rating up to 20% maybe at level 40? The improved crit damage would up your total damage-based threat generation by about an amortized ~20% at best (since the agi would cost you AP… or stamina, which would be insane for a tank), so that might pull you ahead by a bit if you’re wielding a powerful slow 2-hander. But, in circumstances where you’re fighting a single target (i.e. many boss fights), or can generate more than 90 rage per 30 seconds (which is often, if you’re fighting 3+ targets and are using berserker rage on cooldown), or want to wear a shield (which I’ll discuss more below), it looks like prot warrior talents would yield superior threat generation, and this isn’t even bringing Shield Slam into the equation, which per-rage generates about 50% more threat than Improved Sunder Armor (I personally went for Tactical Mastery before jumping into prot, so I won’t get Shield Slam until 50, which is a wee bit late in the leveling process).

People talk about how combining Cleave with Sweeping Strikes lets you hit 4 targets, meaning for 20 rage you get 2x weapon damage worth of threat; with Pendulum of Doom this means you’d get 500 threat for 20 rage plus the missed rage from a weapon swing (so 30-33 rage total). That same 30 rage would get a prot war 517 threat with Improved Sunder Armor (30/12*180*1.15).

On four targets, Whirlwind will get you 4x weapon damage for 25 rage, which would be about 1000 threat for our level 40 with Pendulum of Doom. Though it’s only usable in Berserker stance, meaning that damage would be multiplied by 0.8 instead of the 1.3 threat bonus you get from Defensive stance, meaning Whirlwind gets you 800 post-multiplier threat (4*0.8*250) over a prot war’s 560 post-multiplier threat from tab-spamming Imp Sunder Armor (25/12*180*1.3*1.15). It’s an improvement, but it requires 4 targets, a 2-hander, swapping stances (and either losing a bit of rage because you were over 25, or waiting in Berserker stance until your rage is at 25), and it’s not even an arms exclusive ability; arms will just get a bit more damage/threat out of doing it thanks to 2hand specialization and crit bonuses.

On big groups of 5+ non-elite trash mobs where DPS want to AoE, your best bet for getting threat will probably be to pop Berserker Rage and start spamming Battle Shout. Battle Shout only generates 26 threat per mob (though it jumps to 39 at level 42), but Berserker Rage appears to give a flat 3+ bonus rage to you per hit, so once you have aggro you should have more than enough rage to spam Battle Shout non-stop. Since prot warriors have Defiance, they’d have better threat generation in this situation.

And finally, Mortal Strike; in the wowhead guide this is listed something that should be part of your tanking rotation over Sunder Armor, which seems like a blatant mistake. 30 Rage for a little over 1 swing’s worth of threat. Unless you’ve got a solid lead on threat and are now looking to put a single mob down as fast as possible, this seems like a waste of rage for a tank.

DAMAGE MITIGATION

Everything above assumes the arms warrior has a 2-hander equipped. The slowest 1h weapons in the game have a swing speed of 3s; even if you had a 1hander capable of doing the dps of a 2hander, at best you’d be doing 3/4s of the bonus damage from hit-damage abilities you’d do with a 2hander.

A prot war seems to be able to keep up with or exceed an arms war in threat generation while wearing a shield (especially once you have Shield Slam). Let’s look at what this means for damage mitigation.

A shield provides a substantial boost to armor. If you hit C to open your paper doll and hover over the Armor stat, with and without a shield, your armor reduction will probably be around 40 without a shield, and 50 with it, meaning from armor alone you’ll be taking about 17% less damage (0.5/0.6) with a shield equipped. Factor in shield blocks (5% base block percentage, 10% with shield specialization), and you’ll be taking between 1-6% less damage (depending on how your block value compares with how hard the mob is hitting). On average a shield is probably reducing the amount of damage you take by about 20%.

Prot warriors also get:

Toughness: a 10% armor bonus that roughly equates to a 5% reduction in damage (or higher with a higher armor value)

Improved Revenge: a stun that effectively reduces one mob’s damage output by about 25%

1-handed Weapon Specialization: somewhat compensates for the nice damage+ talents arms gets for 2handers, but is usable with a shield

It looks like a prot warrior with a shield will take less than 75% of the damage of an arms warrior with a 2-hander. Arms get Deflection for a 5% boost to parry, but that’s on the bottom of the tree, so most prot warriors will grab that on the way to Tactical Mastery anyway.

People say threat mitigation doesn’t matter for 5-man dungeon runs, but less healing the tank means less downtime between pulls (not just less pure mana costs of healing, but also how often the healer has to incur the 5 second casting penalty on their spirit regen), and going OOM less often in boss fights. Damage mitigation is what makes a tank a tank, and prot warrior has a clear advantage here.

People say that damage mitigation results in less rage, but that’s kind of a moot point: if a prot war is rage-starved they can just drop their shield for a bit. But for arguments sake, let’s look at how rage generation works (edit: bah, it won’t let me post the link); at level 40 you get about 1 rage for every 60 damage you take. If you’re at level 40 and doing 60dps, you’ll generate about 2 points of rage per second, and let’s say as an arms warrior with a 2-hander you’re in a situation where you’re taking 200dps: you’d be getting 3.3 rage per second from damage, while a prot war with a shield would be taking 150dps for 2.5 rage per second. This means that in this case the prot war is only losing about 10% of their total rage production for 25% damage mitigation, and this isn’t even factoring in contributions from Bloodrage or Berserker Rage (which I can’t find formulas for online, but from my experimenting appears to give a flat 3 rage bonus per hit you take, regardless of damage). Also, prot wars get 1 point per rage for every block: at level 40 with 30 block on your shield, this means prot wars actually gain more rage from blocked hits than unblocked hits (about half a point more of rage per block).


Just to clarify: I’m saying that I have doubts about this claim I’ve seen that arms > prot for tanking dungeons, which is one of the reasons I started this thread (the other is to balance out all the “don’t spec prot while leveling” stuff I’ve seen online); there very well could be things I’m missing, or the sources I’ve sited could be inaccurate (there are inaccuracies in a lot of these online articles; hell, the premise of this thread is aimed largely at one such article). I’m also not saying that prot > arms for tanking dungeons; arms will be able to do more damage, and depending on your party make-up maybe that’s a good thing (and maybe you find arms to be more fun, which is totally fine for PUGs). And I’m definitely not saying prot>arms in general: personally, I hate soloing as a warrior, so I pretty much level exclusively through dungeon runs: if you’re doing a mix of soloing and dungeons then arms is probably the superior choice.

… whew damn this post is long, I spent way more time writing this than I thought I would. Thanks for reading it! If anyone disagrees with any points I’ve made, or is aware of something I haven’t brought up, I’d be keen to hear what you’ve got to say.

It is! I’m still in the process of reading it, but I think that a couple of things to note with regards to whether the Arms tree or Prot tree are better investments for tanking while leveling:

First is that charge is fun, and a good way to generate some initial rage on a pull. Having Tactical Mastery and Anger Management to keep some range when stance dancing after a charge can be convenient.

Second is that Sweeping Strikes is very helpful for initial threat on an AoE trash pack. Charge → Sweeping Strikes → Whirlwind is one of the highest (if not the highest) AoE threat openers.


It would maybe be more interesting to look at this across 3 or 5 mobs, rather than 2.

Also, to note Defiance increases the threat generated by your attacks while in defensive stance.

Yeah, Sweeping Strikes is pretty amazing. Still reading through your post, but it might be worth mentioning Magey’s work on Github: https://github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Threat-Mechanics

And also, Elite’s Classic Warrior Instance Tanking Guide


You seem to be comparing “Arms Warrior” to “Prot Warrior,” but personally I don’t like these terms, and don’t think they really apply to Classic. All warriors have access to 3 talent trees, and other than skills that are talented only, to all warrior skills.

If your build is deep Arms, you can still equip a shield, and use Shield Block, and indeed in some situations, you really should. You can also equip a fast 1 hander, and tab target to get some white hits and/or sunders to maintain threat across multiple mobs.

Second is that Sweeping Strikes is very helpful for initial threat on an AoE trash pack. Charge -> Sweeping Strikes -> Whirlwind is one of the highest (if not the highest) AoE threat openers.

Oh wow, SS stacks with whirlwind to hit 8 targets? Didn’t know that, that is pretty nice for trash packs!

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What you’re missing is that Arms becomes operational/functional much earlier than Prot does. They get improved overpower. They get tac mastery, they get rage talents and weapon specializations.

Prot will be rage starved. The difference in mitigation is simply not noticeable until higher level when things actually hit hard relative to hit point pool.

The Arms talents are so good that even prot wars want them. But if they get them early, they are behind on going down their prot tree and effectively have no meaningful difference between arms and prot spec. If they get them late, they’re still behind because they won’t finish getting the good ones till near cap level.

Arms also solos better. If your goal is to level, and possibly tank while doing it, you will have a much better time as Arms.

If you want to play prot early, feel free. Its perfectly viabl. I just feel like Arms gets the job of leveling done with much more effectively.

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Yeah tactical mastery is awesome, I put my first ten points into arms for it. Besides that though, what talents would prevent an arms warrior from being rage starved?

On getting good talents early: arms gets Sweeping Strikes at 30; if you go into prot immediately you’d have defiance and imp sunder armor at 28 (though I got them at 38 since I went for Tactical Mastery first; still though that’s only 8 levels, and I was slowly building up Defiance during that time). How good is imp Overpower? … ooh wait so if you’re using sweeping strikes (or WW or cleave) does it proc fairly often with the multihits? Damn I didn’t think of that, if that’s the case that is pretty good, especially with the improvements to crit damage.

EDIT: just realized, Overpower requires battle stance though, meaning it’d be generating about 60% of the threat from damage you do in defensive stance. So even if an overpower crit did 3x the damage of a normal hit with impale and the bleed damage, it’d only generate about 1.8x the threat of a normal hit, which is still good but not as crazy as I first thought

One of the main reasons that arms does better threat than prot, in earlier levels, is simply due to rage generation of which the arms tree has more talents towards this and also boosting weapon damage earlier on. Arms vs Prot at early levels is simply a rage generation issue. If Prot could generate enough rage then threat would not be a problem until 60 when you’re probably trying to hold threat against AQ40 and Naxx geared dps.

I’ve leveled to 60 as Prot twice, both in vanilla and Classic (I raid as Fury/Prot now). I’ve never even played Arms. But I have a hard time believing that Arms is better for tanking, unless you’re tanking with a 2-hander. Well, then of course Arms would be better, because the whole tree is about wielding a 2-hander.

But if you’re wearing a shield, Prot is going to be better, IMO, certainly after getting Shield Slam at level 40. The whole key to leveling as Prot is stacking Strength. You don’t gear for mitigation while leveling as Prot. You gear like a DPS warrior, except you’re wearing a shield.

So I would say that Arms is probably good for tanking very low level stuff, because below 40 it doesn’t really matter that much what your spec is. And then Prot overtakes it by level 40. And then when you start raiding, Fury/Prot overtakes Prot.

One of the main reasons that arms does better threat than prot, in earlier levels, is simply due to rage generation of which the arms tree has more talents towards this and also boosting weapon damage earlier on. Arms vs Prot at early levels is simply a rage generation issue.

Could you talk about this in more detail? The talents in the lower half of the arms tree don’t seem all that great for rage generation (except for Tactical Mastery, which is all the more incredible at 30 or 32 or whenever it is that you get Berserker rage since you don’t have to lose rage to pop it), but I’m probably missing something

Anger management. Its implementation is to grant you rage every three seconds. Basically rage decays out of combat at 3 per tick, Instead of making it decay 2 per tick, it still decays at 3 per tick but grants you 1 bonus rage per tick. This mathematically accomplishes the same thing out of combat, but in combat means it is a rage generator.

Okay, so you go angermanagement in Arms first, then over to prot? Thats a huge mistake. Warrior is all about 31 point talent. If you do that, you’ve now made it so you suck until level 51. Meanwhile the Arms build starts gaining speed in the 20s with imp over power and impale. Then sweeping strikes and a weapon specialization in the 30s crowning it all off with Mortal Strike at 40 and ready to start grabbing either prot talents or more damage in fury.

Please don’t think I’m saying Prot sucks, that’s not what I’m saying. Prot is totally viable to level with and if you enjoy that, go for it. Arms just has a smoother, more consistent leveling experience IMO.

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Wow I wish the stupid tooltip said that, that’s a pretty sweet talent. Still, you’re ignoring how good Defiance and Imp Sunder Armor are. I probably should have summarized that wall of text up above better, but the main point is that Defiance and Imp SA mean Sunder Armor’s threat-to-rage ratio jumps up about 44%. That is damn good, and if you go prot right away you’ve got both of them in full at lvl 27. Before getting Sweeping Strikes, is imp overpower all that great (not a rhetorical question implying it isn’t, genuinely curious… I’m imagining that it procs like 1 every 10 hits, but maybe against higher level mobs it’s better than that)? Also, do you have an addon that tells you when to jump over to battle stance when you get an overpower proc, how’s that work?

Improved overpower is pretty much the best damage per rage you can get as a leveling warrior, other than maybe execute. Killing mobs faster is that good. Keep in mind it also will place deep wounds on a target since you got that on your way to impale, which will benefit from Defensive Stance threat modifier.

Yeah you can get an addon/weakaura to tell you to overpower now if you want. You can also know it just pops up any time you see the scrolling combat text say dodge, then switch to Battle, overpower, switch back.

It’s really just about the fact that leveling, warriors don’t have many abilities to use that actually do damage until you get that 31 point talent, so overpower is pretty standout till then.

Improved sunder is okay, for things that live long. Otherwise you could have just outright killed the mob with the rage you spent sundering it spent on damage instead. Which is most mobs in the game except bosses.

I was going to address this in the wall-of-text above but figured it was big enough already: if a warrior tank with a 2hander and arms talents is able to do as much damage as a DPS, and a prot warrior does less than half of that for arguments sake (say all the other DPS are casters, so Sunder Armor contributes very little to damage output), that means you’d only be upping the group’s total damage output by 1/7th. That’s not bad, but it’s not that much faster, and since you’ll be taking about ~30% more damage you’re increasing the potential for downtime between pulls, or of the healer going OOM and wiping (which will slow things considerably). You’re only 1/4th of the group’s damage dealers, and yet you’re taking 100% of the damage.

https://youtu.be/Ccoj5lhLmSQ

It shouldn’t.

Arms is better for lvling yes, didn’t need a wall of text to debate that…

That’s great and all but the main problem with prot is your weapon swings don’t generate a lot of rage and your mitigation is higher and therefore take less damage and generate less rage. Arms hit harder, has better rage generation, doesn’t out mitigate mobs in dungeons.
I have a 60 orc warrior and tried prot in the early levels and the rage generation was terrible. Full prot didn’t start to feel great until ZF and beyond but YMMV.

Tanks taking increased damage isn’t the limiting factor in making a smooth low level dungeon experience. Tanks keeping aggro is. A tank being able to take 100% of the damage in a dungeon is an idealized situation. If you can do that, you’ve already won.

For me, in all of my vanilla/classic dungeon tanking experience, my primary problem always was generating as much threat with the pitiful amount of rage I got. It’s hard to keep aggro off of the healer when you’re dealing with 15 rage coming in per 5 seconds, let alone keeping aggro off of the DPS. It’s not important that wearing a 2H increases your damage taken by 30%, and therefore what you think is a 30% increase in damage taken by the group. It’s that wearing a 2H allows you to keep more mobs off of the DPS.

2H-using Arms Warrior against a pack of 4 mobs -> Sweeping Strikes and/or Whirlwind for excellent threat on all 4 mobs.
Shield-using Warrior against a pack of 4 mobs -> Warrior has aggro on 1, the Rogue has 1, and the Mage with the remaining two.

What do you think is easier to heal? It’s easier to heal the party where most of the damage is going into a plate-wearing dude, despite the lack of a shield. Plate is still better than Mage and/or Rogue, shield or no shield.

What group kills the mobs faster? Even disregarding the Warrior’s damage, there’s something else to consider. In the second group, the mage has to survive through kiting and/or using defensive abilities, which is a huge net loss on his damage. Mages do better when they’re able to just DPS without a care in the world about their well-being.

Also, DPS Warriors are capable of putting on a shield if need be. Prot doesn’t get the ability to just go 2H and/or DW so easily.

What wouldn’t? The DoT, or the increased ability critical damage? Both generate threat, and thus would benefit from Defiance.

That said, Impale is a garbage talent for leveling. You don’t have the stats to crit enough and the damage is minimal while you’re leveling. The two points are better spent elsewhere until 60.

Nah it pairs nicely with imp OP, and there isn’t much else in the tree to get unless you want to respec later.

It’s not amazing, but its not bad.

Prot has weak snap threat generation especially on multiple targets which is most important in earlier dungeons. Prot gets rage starved way too easily and relies entirely on single target threat gen which is not only harder to manage on groups of 3+, but also just slower since it is more even threat over time rather than instant burst threat. Its nice to look at threat over 30 seconds (SS CD), but in reality threat in the first 3 seconds is far more important.

When an arms warrior charges in and has sweeping strikes up they are going to glue at least 2-4 mobs onto them pretty easily and generate enough rage from their 2h and damage taken to continue doing damage/threat.

Arms while leveling is also often going to be one of the top dps in the group while tanking since they have great cleave and are given free rage to cleave with. It turns a group from 1 tank 3 dps 1 healer into a 4 dps 1 healer while not sacrificing too much defensively.