I think so as well.
There may be blood on the Hordeâs hands, but there is no purpose in washing them until the Alliance is shattered.
Atikka has the right idea.
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Ok so a character like Atikka does acknowledge what the Horde has done but as long as its on another non-horde entity (like Alliance regardless of race) then it doesnât matter until dominance is achieved.
He is the Tauren Leatherworker correct? I think I heard he is there to remind the player about Taurajo?
I put some stock in them as I think Blizzard has completely erased the idea of a blue eastern kingdoms and red kalimdor. That was used as a marketing tool for the expansion and faction war, which has turned out o be less a faction war proper and more the horde has done messed up again and is about to reform itself again. I think more or less the status quo is returning after BfA with some minor changes. The mission tables are there to show us that. Both the zones of northern eastern kingdoms and kalimdor are being contested. The silverwing sentinels are active according to the alliance mission table if i remember right ( been awhile since i done them), and are fighting to reclaim towns and stuff.
I donât have link privileges but the quest is titled âNo Small Mercyâ and is given by Saurfang.
This is the text:
I will not slay innocents. If they do not raise arms against us, we shall spare them.
Enter Lorâdanel and capture any civilians you find there. They shall be questioned and then released.
I took it as kind of breaking the fourth wall. Itâs snarky but also kind of an acknowledgement that like yeah, we have been kind of bad lately.
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Iâll start by stating my point first as the rest might just be rambling. Essentially, and I could be wrong here, is the Honor Horde are like fighting games. Even at the beginning, but through skill, they win or lose fairly. Sylvanas sympathizers rpgs. They stack the field before even fighting the boss to ensure they win. Meanwhile the Alliance seem to not want to play any game. With these distinctions, unless you are willing to look at it from a different point of view, you will never understandâŠ
I am suspect of the motivations behind this threadâŠbut it would be a disservice to up and blow it off. Iâm hoping not to make this long. For examples of hordeâs âself reflectionâ there was a blatant thread not so long ago. The name was âHorde PC Shame Tallyâ. There are some pretty solid examples in there for just what you are looking for.
To understand why the playable faction âThe Hordeâ exists, go to Thrall. Essentially the entire foundation of the Horde can be summed up by,
If the Alliance would let them be, they would not trouble the Alliance and would be willing to engage in cooperation and trade. If the Alliance chose to fight them, they would have made an enemy the likes of which had never been seen before â making the old warlock-controlled Horde shrink to insignificance. (Lord of the clans)
Followed on by the fact that the question of should the Horde be orcs only, should they be the top dog, and do the ends justify the means was answered in MoP. Ironically enough, it was Garrosh in the Stonetalon quest line that re-defined why honor was so important. This is why the bombing of Theramore is in direct conflict with Garroshâs original character. We also saw the results of what he morphed into. Itâs very incendiary to say that the Horde hasnât had a retrospective. You can take any view point you want, this is my opinion.
Finally, whose fault is it that when playing the War of Thorns, I donât kill sleeping night elves, I see on youtube if you do, you get rebuked by the NPC for doing that, but alliance get âThey wiped out everythingâ.
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Saurfangâs dialogue⊠why did he feel the need to interrogate them? And release them where? The entire city is surrounded. Where are they supposed to go?
You have to understand that you saying that you are coming here with an open mind doesnât mean that people will believe that you actually coming here with an open mind. Youâve been rather vehement that the Horde is evil, rotten to the core. And the story of BFA has created a high amount of cynicism on the forums. Thus from the get go people are either surprised or suspicious, with some immediately looking for a trap.
Which your examples carried out because they came off with the implication that the Horde should admit on some level that their evil. Thus it doesnât look or feel like you are looking for an actually discussion. It comes off as you trying to trick Horde posters into agreeing that their faction is the evil one. Thus regardless of your actual intention once that was that implication was spotted it tainted your post.
And when it comes Teldrassil itâs rarely, if ever brought up in the Horde play through. The Traveling Father- Traveling Son conversation references it, the world quests target Night Elf mobs have a chance to mention the either wanting vengeance for Teldrassil or that their family died in Teldrassil, and the Horde Darkshore scenario are the only instances of it being mentioned. I donât even the Darkshore Warfront mentions it Horde side.
Which is a major problem because Blizzard destroyed Teldrassil and seem to trying to sweep it under the drug. So we donât know what the average citizen thinks about it, we donât who has an issue with it, and who doesnât. Per Lorâthemar Teldrassil created a schism within the Horde and Baineâs arrest threatened to explode schism. But then he also mentions that Sylvanas has the loyalty of the people because Blizzard says so.
To be more accurate itâs one confirmed Sunreaver (Magister Hathorel). Granted I do believe that other Sunreavers share Magister Hathorelâs opinion but we donât know how many of them side with Lorâthemar above all else, those who want to be like Aethas, and those who would actually join Magister Hathorel. And considering how itâs always been a few Sunreavers against us (Thalen*, Hathorel, the guy who sided with the Legion), so I feel that most will side with Lorâthemar or just chill with Aethas.
*While he was a Horde characters in the Theramore Scenario he did defect from the Horde in War Crimes.
Thatâs an obnoxious statement to make. For one the Horde aided the neutral factions (Argent Dawn/Crusade, Cenarion Circle, Shattrath, etcâŠ) to help them against their enemies and the Alliance did the same. In fact that argument could be made that both sides benefited by helping the neutrals because it secured land against the Scourge, helped stabilize Outland, defeat the Burning Legion, etc⊠So at best both sides help out to help out other factions and at worst both are looking for themselves and help the neutrals for the added benefit of weakening other forces on Azeroth. So either no one genuinely helped others or everything did it to gain a benefit.
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I assume to see if they had any knowledge about the tree he thought we were about to invade and occupy. As for where they would be released, Idk, maybe given safely back to the Alliance.
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Hmm ⊠not that I approve of the concept of a Mostly Blue EK and Mostly Red Kalimdor, but something just doesnât sit right with me there. Bluntly, while the NEs powerfantasy and lifestyle alleviates this a bit ⊠both the Forsaken and Kaldorei have been rendered nearly without any real infrastructure to maintain a impactful war effort (for any extended period of time). The Forsaken especially should have no real chance to take back Northern EK.
Not only that (if I werenât so convinced Sylvie tends to screw over the Horde), with the fall of both fleets there is very little reason for the Horde not to refocus its efforts on pushing the Alliance OUT of their conquered territories. Bluntly, if the Horde just turtled up and defended ⊠it would be hella hard for them to be pushed out (even with SUPER Tyrande). I mean, have we seen ANY signs of the Breaker Factions since they came back with the Magâhar? If those things (DESIGNED to wage war against PRIMALS) are sent into Ashenvale ⊠it would be real tough to move them with druids.
Yes. First you say.
Those are your words. You did not qualify them in this statement. You flat out said others.
I gave you examples to the contrary, and then you try to worm your way out with:
Why dont you categorize them initially, before you make blanket statements that are simply incorrect? Hmm?
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thatâs all fine speculation but letâs not kid ourselves about the details blizzard is gonna write lol. darkshore warfront is there explicitly imo to show the alliance, and the night elves specifically, still have a hold in kalimdor. this combined with the fact we both know the inevitable is coming, sylvanas being disposed, the factions making peace, etc i think its safe to say there is going to be no red kalimdor blue EK
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I havenât made up my mind on this issue.
There is just too much acting against the Forsaken getting back their territories for me to take the concept of âMostlyâ faction exclusive continents off the table (unless the Forsaken Faction gets saddled with Calia as their replacement leader ⊠which ⊠thatâs got its own major issues). On top of this, Blizz wrote a PLETHORA of deeply invasive species coming back with the AU Magâhar.
Honestly ⊠I think Iâll make up my mind the moment we see what Blizz does with Calia and the Forsaken NEs. They are the wild-cards, but I donât really expect a whole lot of movement on either of them until 8.3. Weâll have to wait and seeâŠ
As someone who has played the universe since wc3, all plight suffered by the horde was due to the alliance. So until there is a decade of total alliance slavery, then things will be even, and then our actions can be vuewed as unwarranted.
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I understand perfectly. Thatâs why I hid nothing when I first wrote the thread.
I do think Horde is rotten to the core but Horde players keep telling me that I am wrong so that must mean there is some sort of content I have missed on the Horde side that mentions in no uncertain terms.
âWe went too far. This is not ok.â or something to that effect.
But as you mentioned there is very little evidence of that.
So what does that mean? Is the absence of evidence an evidence by itself?
It is hard to differentiate I agree.
Thatâs why I do not include both factions in neutral faction help questlines because everytime it was to help them accomplish some greater goal to their own benefit.
Velen cleansing the Sunwell and returning it to the Blood Elves could be an example of selfless help.
Mercy could be an example too. Andiun and Jaina could easily take my view of âThe Horde is rotten to the core and should be wiped outâ but they donât. (Much to my annoyance)
Even after Dazaralor they are reluctant to take action against the Horde for moral reasons.
Have we seen any sort of moral conflict within the Horde like this?
Surely what Jaina and Andiun say and do is to their peopleâs impediment but they view their moral character and integrity of more importance than just winning.
We could also think about Jaina choosing to side with Thrall rather than her own father for the greater good.
Has a Horde character made any sacrifices like this for the greater good in a faction conflict setting?
true. maybe blizzcon will tell us something
I said those words because at the time I thought we were of the same opinion but expressing them differently.
Simply because I though the intent of the post was clear. It was only after you started generalizing that I realized maybe what I was saying could be interpreted too liberally.
Carmâs initial post was about âpeople agreeing with meâ which I found puzzling until you raised your own points along with Deathisfinal who⊠I THINK meant
âHorde is moral caring to anyone who isnât allianceâ which I responded with âAnd yet Alliance is morally caring towards the Horde despite that. Why?â
And then things got more murky from there.
Also I would appreciate it if you would stop with the gotcha posts.
If you want an argument with me then lets just drop it because for this one topic I donât want to get into an argument just a civil discussion.
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Hereâs sort of what I mean. I havenât decided yet if the Kul Tirans are meant to be the Humanâs of SW AR ⊠or the Gilnean AR. Bluntly, with Gennâs position within the Kul Tiras story being nearly identical in function to Rokhanâs on Zandalar (and the fact that the Kul Tiranâs human lineage originates from Gilneas) ⊠Iâd put my money on the Kul Tirans being the Gilnean (Worgen) AR.
The Junkers have too many assets devoted to them to NOT become the Gnome AR (and Gelbinâs condition is literally just an excuse for a recruitment scenario). The Goblins in contrast, the only thing stopping them from being able to recruit EITHER the Vulpera or Kelfin is Gallywix (and lookie there ⊠Gazlowe seems to be getting built up as a potential replacement for him).
If this is the case ⊠that leaves TWO Core Races with ARs unaccounted for (I donât count Pandarens) ⊠the Humans of SW ⊠and the Forsaken. Now imagine exactly where a Calia Brand Undead AR and a Forsaken Elven AR would end up if such ARs should come to exist? Lordaeron/Tirisfal Glades & The Husk of Teldrassil/Darkshore perhaps? Its a strange situation to look at mechanicallyâŠ
Then make fewer thoughtless and incorrect blanket statements, and there would be no need for such âgotcha postsâ.
If you think you can post nonsense like âthe horde doesnât care about othersâ without being challenged - maybe you need a diary and not a discussion forum.
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I made the post with my intent clear. I am not going to lawyer up like I am on the debate team, I made a request to find evidence based on a pre-existing assumption outlined in the OP.
You came with a completely new set of assumptions and took the discussion in an entirely new direction. It wasnât even about who was wrong or right it was about finding evidence of a popular point being debated on the story forums.
And from what I have seen you post previously you are part of pro-Sylvanas crowd that generally does not believe in that begining underlying assumption to begin with.
You seem to be extremely hostile in this thread. Like I said I am not going to get into an argument with you.
No - you made a statement that the lore contradicts.
That statement of yours is just incorrect, as the lore demonstrates. If you feel injecting accurate lore points equates to hostility, because it contradicts your head canon, that is some victim complex.
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