"Are we the baddies?" Self-awareness of the Horde?

You make no sense. You are the one claiming because of Arthas’ actions her claim is no longer valid.
And fail to provide and references for that being the case.

She is the princess of lordaeron and has the strongest claim to the throne being the last remaining of the Menethil line.

No matter what Arthas did she is still the princess and she can make her claim any time she wants.
As long as she has the military strength to take what is hers then its hers.

Its pretty simple.

“Right of conquest is okay when alliance do it” - Pheandra

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Welcome to medieval politics.
Thats how it always goes down.

Might makes right and who your daddy and mommy was.

The throne is currently under a couple hundred tons of Blight… Calia is welcome to try and take it if she wants… no Forsaken is gonna want to follow her though, so I guess she’d be a Queen of an empty city.

Could happen.
We are not discussing the morality or popularity only Calia’s royal rights.

She could become the queen of the living Lordaeron citizens.
Who knows.

Your moral framework makes my skin crawl.

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We arent discussing morality.
And nice job with the personal attacks once again.

You cant be civil in a simple discussion?

Fine with me, so long as the Forsaken can setup shop in Kalimdor and we get as much separation between the factions as possible.

I say the Forsaken move into Dustwallow Marsh and build over Theramore. The Nightborne are sure to have some knowledge on how to soak up all that loose Arcane energy into somethin’ productive.

What if the undead rule undercity and the living rule the surface city?

That would be pretty cool.

Stop with the pearl clutching. Your entire presence on these forums is specifically to make Horde fans feel bad, to be obnoxious to us, to rub in our faces how badly the story has treated us, and to advocate for the removal of the things we like. I disagree with a lot of people on this forum, but I’m only ever rude to you, and it’s because you’re intellectually dishonest and because the way you talk about the races of the Horde frankly makes me uncomfortable, but ultimately it’s because you’re just mean-spirited.

I’m cutting myself off again. Getting into arguments on the internet about things that don’t matter with bad faith actors is developing into another one of my methods of self-abuse, and I’m going to stop. Have fun, everyone.

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Nah, I want Calia as far away from the Horde as possible. I don’t need another holier-than-thou Alliance partisan constantly tellin’ me I should feel bad that the Horde made Anduin cry again.

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And yet I never personally insulted you or been rude with you.

And I have never lied. Everything I state can be sourced and I make an effort to do so.
We have a disagreement thats all.

If you cant have civil discussion then dont have one. Thanks.

With Andiun and Jaina maybe its time for the Horde to have more Baines and Calias to temper the savagery of the rest of the Horde.
Believe me I have heard more about the value of Troll lives than alliance lives from Andiun and Jaina this expansion.

If that is the direction Blizzard wants to go… then I’m definitely not comin’ back to Retail.

I don’t want to be friends with the Alliance.

Horde vs Alliance was the primary reason I started playin’ WOW ‘cuz it was fun to RP a bloodthirsty Troll or Orc plowin’ my way through Stormwind knights, then swap to a Dwarf Warrior and carve my way through the Trolls and Orcs.

Take away the blood feud between the Horde and Alliance and I have no reason to return to Retail.

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I feel the same but some on these forums are of a different opinion.

Just check the fellow Nightborne poster earlier.
It gets pretty heated.

I don’t have a problem with H v A. I have a problem with Blizz’s inability to write it well and constantly villain bats the Horde and tosses the idiot ball in as a follow up.

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Oh definitely, Blizzard has constantly shown that at least since Cataclym they’re incompetent in writing the H v A blood feud in any satisfactory way.

I wouldn’t get heated with you. It’s fun for nobody involved, just like being needlessly combative, snarky, and as abusive of “gotcha” moments as possible on forums is only fun for the dingdong doing it. I’ve done that thing. I’ve been that dong. I say no more!!

From an in-universe perspective it’s a tougher case to make for the Horde being good (or at least more good than evil), but from a meta perspective I do think it’s a shame that the moral positions of the two factions have become so thoroughly skewed.

I’d say immediately following WCIII was the closest the factions have ever been as far as moral standing. The orcs did some naughty things during WCIII (cough Grommash cough), the Alliance did some naughty things (cough Daelin cough), and the orcs who made up the bulk of the Horde army were too young to really remember the first two wars and were essentially innocent of the atrocities the orcs committed back then. Plus, while the orc internment camps kinda sucked, I will concede the Alliance did what they had to, and honestly did it quite graciously. They had no guarantee that the orcs would ever be anything other than monsters but they were willing to bankrupt themselves for the sake of showing them mercy.

Obviously we’re a far way away from that starting point come current WoW. And as a Horde and an Alliance fan, I think that sucks. Now the Alliance gets to enjoy some justice blue-balling (hah) and the Horde gets to enjoy constantly being reminded of how pointless every single redemption storyline they’ve ever gone through has been.

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I whole heartedly agree with you.

They took the dog out out the back and shot it with a 12 gauge and now are furiously trying to stitch it back together with glue and paper clips.

Whatever they do the damage is done.
Its been a never ending downhill since WC3.

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Introducing Calia to “temper” the horde seems like a horrible idea to me because it reeks of having an outside character get artificially injected into the faction to make it more sympathetic. It just further sends a message about how the horde can’t do anything good on its own without an alliance (or alliance-adjacent) character “showing them the light”, so to speak.

In a better story, I would have really liked Baine for this. But he fails in a different way, in that he seems to only exist in the story to be the lone sympathetic character trapped by evil maniacs. Taken individually, all of his actions make sense to me…but when they’re all put together, and combined with the fact that I haven’t seen him do ANYTHING other than assist the alliance, it has soured my view of the character so much that I’d rather see him get killed off than become warchief.

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that’s why the commander let the civilians escape Taurajo
or why the first Alliance put all the orcs in camps instead of wiping them out
or why the current Alliance pulled back from Dazar’alor when they could have capitalized on their victory and bled Zandalar dry
or why undead citizens of Lordaeron trying to escape Sylvanas’ paranoid murder-frenzy fled to the protection of Alliance soldiers
or why…

Edit: I realize that you said “from the viewpoint of the Horde”, i.e. not a player’s viewpoint, but that kinda just writes the average Hordie into seeming like a completely uneducated simpleton who is oblivious to the most basic of historical facts.

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