Are the Forsaken dying out?

Was actually none existent from me. I actually started liking Sylvanas exactly when it became obvious she was getting railroaded into raid boss status and they did such a piss poor job explaining why a character who was all about working in the shadows was suddenly overtly antagonistic to everybody and everything.

I can’t actually speak for anyone else but I assume it was for the same reason that you supported Jaina or Tyrande or anyone else in your faction - they are part of your faction and written as your allies, and it doesn’t really matter what horrible stuff your allies do to your enemies because they are supposed to be your enemies.

Somewhere along the way someone decided that the Horde could be the Alliance’s enemy, but not the other way around.

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Track record.

Notice any heirs to the Kaldorei throne? Gnomeregan resettled? The 90% death toll in Quel’thalas considered no more immediate a factor of their population as the Black Death is ours? Kajaro stop erupting? How’s that non-demonic Eredar population on Argus?

Seems to me the Forsaken have one of the most stable populations in this setting. Oh hey, somebody died, we gotta go grave robbing quick.

And made from an amalgamation of otherwise “useless” parts, such as children and intact limbs of otherwise unservicable bodies. That’s quite doable with mindless undead, the amalgamation creates one. If barely.

Because they want to

Without a change in culture, that fact will remain. Most of their killing isn’t done in service of reanimation, it’s done in service of hatred or sadism toward the living. Again, even farms are offensive to them.

So a weakening Lich King with all but the most powerful and distant Scourge under his command is somehow less potent than a Lich King who just had the Helm of Domination ripped apart? Come on. You know better than that.

So… 2010-Present?

What’s she done yet other than make my ears bleed with her voice acting?

Didn’t care for her before, still don’t. Frankly you could kill every single Alliance leader and parade their bodies around Orgrimmar like Rob Stark’s and I would be totally cool with it so long as we get to kill the one primarily responsible for the deed. Wouldn’t even hold it against the race in question so long as they weren’t gleefully endorsing it, and even then I wouldn’t suggest attacking them.

Oh, haha. Yeah she has always been bad from an Alliance perspective but not necessarily from a Horde one. Deal with it.

Nothing at all. None of these characters have to ‘do’ anything for you to like or dislike them.

Super. But the point remains that you should not conflate support for any given character in or outside of your faction or someone else’s faction for support of the narrative of a given expansion.

I like Sylvanas. I despise the story in BFA.

Yup, its about what I thought. You’re obsessed with population numbers in a setting that has never cared about population numbers; and are super petty about the Forsaken to boot.

Also, Blizz being lazy as hell when it comes to rebuilding. The reason Gilneas isn’t already back in the hands of the Gilneans, is solely because Blizz does not want to invest the resources needed to give it back. This is the same reason Silvermoon are still in ruins … in BC. Blizz can and will continue to spawn as many people as they need from any race. The goal is to give the Forsaken a thematic means to continue into a hypothetical future; and give them a new direction to boot … just one that doesn’t totally come at the expense of their entire racial fantasy like Calia would.

Also, part of the lul in control for the original Forsaken came in the form of dmg to the Frozen Throne, and Arthas going into a dormant state. I am uncertain where you keep getting this idea that Forsaken can just make more Forsaken from corpses? They may be able to make Abominations, but even Sylvie was only ever to raise mindless skeletons, without her Val’kyr she could not raise even a Forsaken class undead. One with a soul, and will. Canonically the Vanilla Forsaken are all supposed to have stemmed from those originally freed from the Lich Kings control during that very small period; none of them were raised into undeath from unraised corpses.

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Don’t worry Calia will save the Forsaken Race. She just needs to get rid of that Holy Light grow in the Future and be more like Arthas.

No, she was ruthless and a type 3/4 Anti-Hero until the whole Gilneas debacle. The Wrathgate was not obviously her fault, it was ambiguous. Garithos got done dirty, but he was a jackbutt, so still pretty ambiguous. Then she gassed the entire city.

That’s not shade of gray, that’s outright black. Deal with it.

Gassing cities to death is a pretty fast way for me to dislike someone.

Then get on topic. This is not a BFA discussion.

Their racial identity is currently “murder reanimate and plague the other faction” and “praise dictator woman.” There isn’t much to work with that they haven’t shown willingness to easily compromise on already. I’m curious what the ever loving heck you think Calia would do to the faction beyond, perhaps, tone down the murder a little.

So you’re not certain but you know exactly how.

And now Arthas is dead, Frostmourne was shattered, and the Helm of Domination and spirit of Ner’zhul are caput.

That bit was portrayed as optional since she came back from Icecrown. They changed the quest text a little in the Cataclysm beta to hide it, but even the reanimation in Silverpine wasn’t creating willing undead. A blue later tried to handwaive it, but the effects were the same. And they cropped up again and again. We even have evidence from the Darkshore scenario that powerful Val’kyr could, and given Sylvanas’ 180 degree moral compass definitely would, mind control the reanimated.

Then why are you saying the Forsaken need a source of fresh bodies?

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The Forsaken are probably in better shape than the Night Elves.

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Careful, apparently that joke is verboten here.

Its not about “Fresh Bodies”, its about actually giving them a new direction for their racial narrative; one that doesn’t completely spit in the face of their Racial Identity. Calia Menthil is a woman who has the barest understanding of what it even means to be undead; let alone Forsaken. She knows nothing about the struggles, suffering, pain, and yes … even successes the Forsaken have went through over the last 15 years. She abandoned them, to go into a self imposed exile … during a stage of their development when they needed her most. She’s essentially the Mom who went away for smokes for 15 years, only now to return when she feels the incentive to … and constantly keeps wondering why the angry, damaged teen she found isnt the same 3 year old she left behind.

Calia invalidates the last 15 years of Forsaken history, purely operating on a principle of Divine Right to Rule. Therefore, the only thing of value about the Forsaken with her in charge, is that they were once Humans of Lordaeron; nothing else. Its “Human Potential”. You seem so fixated on extremes here when it comes to the Forsaken’s path’s forward, that you seem outright adamant that they don’t get a path forward; and the only thing they should do is vanish into the backround of the story and let themselves die out.

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Key word there. Again, I’m a late-comer to supporting her but I’m sure there were those in the Horde that supported her either because she was written for us to support her or because they hoped there would eventually be a redemption arc for her. I can’t really defend an opinion I didn’t share, but I can point out that your opinion on the matter is not more valid than there’s.

Super. But beside the point.

You’re the one making the sweeping generalization about how players felt about BFA, not me.

You want to be on topic? Be my guest.

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I think Droite is just saying that this could be an opportunity to give Forsaken a positive portrayal (helping fellow undead) as a change of pace from their BfA portrayal (“it’s fun to do bad things”) .

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A subsection of players. If you’re not one of them, great, but they exist. And you know it. So I’m not making a sweeping generalization in any way, shape or form.

You said you only started jumping on the Sylvanas bandwagon because you were doing it ironically to mock BFA. But you also said you were always on the Sylvanas bandwagon.

You’re a very dishonest person. Even if Droite’s suggestion is a maddening red flag of “could we not”, at least she’s honest. You are not.

And what do you suppose would have happened if she hadn’t? Kinda how she died. Only I doubt she’d be coming back that time.

9 of those last years were defined by genocidal hatred. So she invalidates 6 years?

ahem

STOP.

Sounds like the teen needs a parental figure in their lives.

And you keep focusing on the fact that they’re undead as if that’s all they ever were, completely ignoring that they were Lordaeronian. If that’s the case I guess the living Lordaeronians in the Alliance really did have a better claim to Lordaeron than the Forsaken?

You don’t like the idea of it. That’s not the characters’ perspectives, that’s yours.

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You really like bouncing between Story points and Meta points at a moments convenience to argue your points don’t you? Someone makes a point debating you on a story level, you bounce back with a Meta level argument. Someone debates you using meta arguments, you bounce back with story arguments. If you find yourself frustrated on both sides, you fire back with moral stances.

Also, no, I’m not ignoring that they were from Lordaeron. In fact, its part of why I’m OK with the prospect of a Calia Brand Undead AR should it happen. But, I also don’t try to pretend that if I lose touch with a friend for 15 years that they are going to be the same person they were when I last saw them. Not all Forsaken are citizens of Lordaeron anymore either.

Voss, as forced as she is in her current role, represents what I believe the FORSAKEN can be at their best; once she got past that vengeance trip of hers. She does have the ability to become a fantastic Forsaken leader, that can make them a productive race of the world; but also retain many Forsaken traits. The Forsaken turning their eyes to freeing their still unfreed brethren … something Voss was doing to some effect in BfA … could facilitate a Voss, Tattersail, Velanora, etc … era of the Forsaken.

Why is it that with the Forsaken can only by one or the other with you? Why is it only extremes? Why can they only be either Scourge-light; or find the light with Calia Menethil? I get that Blizz has issues with Moral Grey, but when were talking about hypothetical futures for a PC race … they shouldn’t be outright ignored. There are many paths for the Forsaken between just being Sylvie’s scourge, and just falling in line with their Divine Queen Calia.

The Forsaken were defeated in the Darkshore Warfront even using this tactic of raising the dead. The Defilers also probably finally lost the Arathi Basin Battleground with the Alliance getting the canon win of the Arathi Warfront as well. According to Edge of Night, without Sylvanas the Forsaken would have lost to the Alliance so badly after trying to invade Gilneas that they would have started throwing themselves into fires rather than face the Alliance - and we got a taste of this in Silverpine when the Horde player makes it into Gilneas and just gets handed a series of crippling defeats.

The Forsaken are not the zombie apocalypse you make them out to be. Speaking of:

With the pre-expansion event for Shadowlands, we are probably going to make a joke out of the Lich King-less Scourge, the same as we stomped the Iron Horde, the Legion on Argus, and N’Zoth’s forces as well.

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And not all from Stormwind are from Stormwind. Moot point.

Just baiting you into showing your hand. Not impressed. Low numbers mean nothing in this game. High numbers, though, that’s an issue. Let’s keep the most aggressively homicidal race in the game on the low end, or make them less so, shall we?

I doubt she’d make them find the light, but Voss is a bit too stabby herself to tame their bloodlust by any noticeable degree. What on earth is possessing you to think the Forsaken would pull a total 180 with Calia in charge? I’m fine with them pulling a 90, 95 and just avoiding stabbing people.

And if this was a more realistic setting the appointment of Calia would probably be the only thing that they could do to hold the Alliance’s wrath. You know, if it weren’t even more realistic still that the Alliance is proper hosed right now given “if that fails, we’re done” and couldn’t enforce a speeding ticket.

Girl, I play Gnomes, do you think I have any sympathy at all for races out of the spotlight for a single patch whatsoever? We’re talking 3.3.5 to 8.2.0, and they’re still just filler in a subpar expansion. Cry me a river.

Oh gee, the state-size fire started by the fiends being discussed right now tip you off about that? Sorry, that was uncharitable, but damn it you know better than that.

You’ve got a point. The Scourge have been defeated, and that was with “the” real OG Lich King at their Helm. No way in hell the Scourge are going to be this apocalyptic force against the current Horde and Alliance anymore; with no real direction to lead them.

On top of this, the Forsaken have never really been portrayed as some monolithic power. Blight has repeatedly been shown to be their crutch to compensate for their lack of military strength; and their Alliance of Convenience with the Horde was their wall to make the Alliance think twice about invading their territories. I mean, outside of Gilneas, which was already brutalized by the Worgen Curse and the Cataclysm, have the Forsaken ever been shown to defeat anything but refugees and farmers? Who … btw … New Andorhal … wth was humanity thinking with that stunt? Lets move in a settlement right next to the Forsaken’s capital? Wut? That will turn out well.

Xanatos gambit thrown off by Deus Ex Machina, doesn’t really count.

Should be lorewise, that’s why they’ve been hush hush about it. But we’ll see how they play it. Could be Bolvar has some measure of control over them still, but also could be we’re fighting in the Shadowlands to fix the problem while the rest of the world struggles with the Scourge.

But yeah, “apocalyptic invasion” doesn’t quite hold up often, look at the Broken Isles. Whole place should’ve looked like Argus the way they were talking.

The Forsaken probably would have lost Andorhal as well if Sylvanas didn’t get involved. Just like the difference between the War of the Thorns with Sylvanas fighting alongside the Horde, and the Darkshore Warfront when Sylvanas didn’t bother showing up again. And with Sylvanas gone the Forsaken don’t really have a reason to attack the Alliance at all if the Alliance agrees to an armistice.

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Entire Alliance military until Deus Ex Jaina.
All the Night Elves who weren’t off to Silithus.
The forward forces of the Scourge, Alliance, and Horde all at once.
The Nathrezheim.
GLF with Kaldorei, Stormwind and Gnomish support.
Stromgarde.

Can we please not turn this into another NE therad. Please.

Moving on,

I can’t think that going forward that the Forsaken wouldn’t just gather former Scourge to fill out the ranks, provided they still have their minds.

Granted the focus on that would probably be Voss and Calia though so…/shrug on how that’ll actually turn out.