Are the Forsaken dying out?

Lore Story Forum
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The Drakaari are all but extinct. Zul’drak, despite being largely happy to keep to themselves … is a dead Kingdom. If trolls decide to take up residents there once again, it wont be the original inhabitants. The Farraki, Gurubashi, and Amani are all in fairly rough spots themselves, with entire subtribes being eradicated … and their leadership in ruins. TBH … the only salvation these groups might find is following in Talaanji’s example and stop allowing themselves to be mired in a past that will never be reclaimed. Perhaps this is why Blizz is adding new Tribal Skins to the Darkspear?

TBH, for the Trolls, a part of me hopes that Sen’jin was right, and the Vol’jin’s current path will lead him to saving all of Troll Kind. I just hope that Vol’jin’s story doesn’t come at the cost of Bwon.

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I don’t think they’re going to ‘die out’. Not everyone in the Forsaken believe that they should be bringing more people into the fold and that the curse should die with them, but for as long as they exist and need to fight their fight for survival, there will be a need for more Forsaken. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the RAF began raising people from the dead with necromancy and converting captured Scourge to Forsaken. A slower process than having the Val’kyr mass-raising a whole cemetery but you make due with what you have.

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Not as quickly as the Night Elves.

The thing about undead is they’re like a company: either they start dying out or we’re all going to get taken over.

Forsaken, despite what early quests showed, have shown no evidence that their existence is finite for years. If it was as bad a problem as it was implied in those quests, the vast majority of the population would have been rotbrains by now. Named characters would have become such.

Instead it appears their numbers were swelling with every battle.

At first the Alliance could counter by sending Dwarves and Worgen specifically because their deaths couldn’t be used to grow the undead ranks, because they couldn’t reanimate nonhumans.

Now, we’ve got dark sentinels. The only races now with a feasible immunity to adding to Forsaken ranks are the Lightforged, as their corpses may be too saturated with the light to reanimate, and the Worgen, whose cursed beings were practically written to be a counterplay to the Valkyr. Neither is a sure thing.

If the Forsaken aren’t slowly dying to neutral threats and accidental death, they would be a nigh unstoppable malicious force against the Alliance, even before you factor in the rest of the Horde.

Just to break even, an Alliance soldier must kill 2 Forsaken for every death they cause to the Alliance.

But wait, it gets worse. The undeath, as seen in Edge of Night, actually makes the Forsaken harder to re-kill. So realistically, that 2 to 1 ratio still isn’t good enough because the undead they raise even of your superior fighters will become even more powerful still.

And god help you if they manage to kill one district of a major city without blowing up the corpse. Full on zombie apocalypse if that happens.

So yeah, they’re SLOWLY dying out, which is a good thing. We all know they’ll never actually die out. The race is playable. They can’t.

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Oh, for god’s sake, please don’t turn this into another NE grief thread. We have 3 of those going right now, we don’t need more.

This topic is about the future of the Forsaken and their continuation as a people. And people have brought up some fairly good points here. With the Helm of Domination gone the Forsaken finally have an opportunity to get back to their roots and start expanding their population by freeing the minds of Scourge that can still be freed. Any Scourge completely beyond that point of no return, well … the Forsaken do need parts for maintenance. On top of this, we are going into an afterlife very reflective of the Forsaken’s aesthetics … so something may come from that as well.

The biggest challenge for Forsaken atm is “where” they are going to live, and the danger Calia Menethil presents to their Racial Fantasy. I think they should keep Tirisfal, and Stratholme would make for an amazing new capital … but the Argents are an annoying presence within all those zones the Forsaken could rebuild in.

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II made one mention of night elves as a joke. Call yourself.

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Why make it? You know exactly what happens any time the NEs current situation is bought up in these threads, even as just a “joke”. Beyond that, you immediately transition into sort of an anti-Forsaken rant; when its very clear that with Sylvie gone … the Forsaken are no longer in a position to really continue their way of propagation the way they did under her reign. Not politically, and certainly not functionally without her Val’kyr.

Hence the point of this discussion. The Val’kyr, the entities that allowed for the Foraken’s apparent “unstoppable” nature, are gone. Their absence has left the Forsaken in a rather dicey spot, without another means to continue their people and maintain their population. On top of this, they need a means that is not directly confrontational with the Alliance as well. Thus, Shadowlands … or more likely … if Blizz cares at all … the now HoD-less Scourge.

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A: Because it’s a joke. Insert usual line about it being a joke, not something else, so don’t take it so hard. It makes you sound irrational to go off on one line like that.

B: Nowhere near what happens every time the Forsaken have been brought up since, oh, Cataclysm beta. That reeks of hypocrisy.

C: It’s kinda hard to separate the Forsaken from the Night Elves these days, just as it is hard to separate Gilneas from the Forsaken (I mean come on even a giant wall couldn’t do it. rimshot). Forsaken were butts in both instances and now their destinies are entwined for a very long time if not forever.

My anti-forsaken “rant” is the reason you can’t have a powerful, aggressive, parasitic species, like the Forsaken until recently have been, go unchecked for very long without turning the genre into “zombie apocalypse.” And they were pushing it as it was.

Even if you’re fighting back, we’re talking Halo 3 Flood level disaster waiting to happen unless WMDs are employed. And it’s the Alliance. WMDs are never employed by them, only against them. Repeatedly.

The forsaken are in a dicey spot? Good. Maybe some comeuppance would finally pound the idea of “life is valuable” into their heads. They can join the Gnomes and the Night Elves and the Void Elves and the Goblins and possibly the Maghar, from what I understand, in that regard. None of them have their cities either and are also in a bind.

Giving the Forsaken access to the entire scourge as a recruitment supply is begging for more ludicrous population number differences than we already have. The Forsaken do not need to be in a good spot. Most races aren’t.

Blood Elves? 90% of their population in the northern EK was wiped out. Half their city is gone.

Gnomes? Their entire city was gone before the game even started and has yet to be retaken, which is a feat NO other race can match in how pathetic it is. Even the Goblin and Worgen’s 15 minutes was more than the Gnomes had. 80% died in Gnomer and from all the slaughers that seemed to happen until Cataclysm I’d say it’s become a higher number than that. From what old, outdated, questionable material we have on the subject, these guys live for a couple centuries and don’t reproduce very quickly. Odds are they’re still in dire straits even if you do throw the tiny junkyard into the equation.

Humans have had every single kingdom sacked at one point or another. It’s a wonder they’re even still around, let alone so numerous, though even that estimate has been shifting wildly in BFA.

I’d mention another race but you’d apparently get upset about it.

The Forsaken will not die out, they cannot die out. They don’t even show any recent evidence of being at risk of dying out. They even managed to evacuate the city before they lost it. The Forsaken forces were the lion’s share of what the entire force the Alliance and revolutionary Horde could muster were merely hoping to stand a chance against.

The straits of the Forsaken are recent, and not dire, however much of a crisis of faith they might have. I think they can get by without them raising a colossal standing army for a few expansions.

EDIT: Oh, and regarding a peaceful relationship or cult spreading in the Alliance forces to persuade them to join the Horde in undeath? That bridge was burned waaaaay back. The Alliance would have to be holding an idiot ball the size of Sargeras to trust the Forsaken after all that. Maybe try again in 2036 if this game lasts that long.

The more likely solution is just leaving things well alone. The Forsaken aren’t going anywhere even without the Val’kyr.

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No playable race will ever die out. Not even the unplayable.

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The laconic version of why we shouldn’t care that they can’t res people easily.

Mine above was the verbose version of why we should be more concerned if they could.

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Speaking of rage infused tangents? Also, perhaps I’m a little kneejerk with the topic of the NEs because … things like another Alliance grief thread just popped up; with Alliance players once again making claims like the Horde playerbase secretly loved this expansion. And, how unfair it is that the Alliance isn’t allowed to wipe out an entire Player Faction for what the writers forced that Faction to do. Not like the Horde players care about the story right?

Regardless, this topic is about the future of the Forsaken, and how … they could conceivable continue as a race; assuming they can at all. But, for some reason, you keep trying to redirect that very simple topic. Also, nowhere did I say that the Forsaken and Alliance should be friendly. Nowhere did I suggest the Alliance should trust the Forsaken. Merely that on a global, political, and functional level … the Forsaken are no longer in a position to act in the ways that they had under Sylvanas; especially in regards to their means of propagation.

Freeing the minds of the Scourge takes the Forsaken back to their roots, and allows them to do something rather noble. Such a means has always been portrayed as time consuming, and requiring deliberate effort … so its unlikely to explode their population in an extreme way. It provides them a non antagonistic method to continue their “race”, one that doesn’t require them to kill others to do. It is a very thematically back-to-basics concept that allows the Forsaken to at least become more compatible with the living races of Azeroth.

You are right that a course correction was needed to justify the Forsaken’s existence beyond mechanics going forward. And, the destruction of the Helm of Domination and the shattering of the Sylvie cult of personality … could allow such a correction; without destroying everything about the Forsaken Racial Identity and Fantasy like Calia would.

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A not-insignificant subsection of the playerbase of the race being discussed was totally on board with Sylvanas’ shenanigans until she left. And most of that subsection still was after.

You’re not part of that subsection? Great, maybe you’re reasonable enough to talk to beyond the mere mention of one of the Alliance races setting you off like a land mine. The subsection, however, still exists, and I’ll ask you not to pretend otherwise. I hope you’re better than that.

And so your suggestion is to give them the means to do so again…

Without changing their motive of “slaughter everyone and raise them into undeath against their wills”? The only change to their “racial identity” being their inability to be as sadistic and twisted as they’d like to be and a change in figurehead?

I am vehemently opposed to such a suggestion.

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Yeah … one would assume they would reflect Lillian Voss’s actions in BfA. Amadis was right when he said she was essentially doing for new Undead what I am suggesting the Forsaken start doing with the Scourge. Get back to basics, help free those minds of those that can be freed, help those minds transition into their new existence. Focus on healing and moving on from their trauma; rather than just invalidating their trauma like “went to get smokes 15 years ago” Calia would.

Why are you opposed to this, beyond wanting no avenues for a future for the Forsaken?

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Why is anyone afraid of the Forsaken? Just hug them to death.

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Because the Scourge is an army large enough to take on the Alliance and Horde simultaneously. We stuck Bolvar’s crispy butt on the chilly chair for a reason.

The Forsaken are already powerful enough to take on the entire force Anduin and Varok could muster combined and leave the two hoping they even had a chance. That’s not even factoring in Sylvanas and the three Val’kyr she whisked away with her, just the forces they had there.

We do not need to add the SCOURGE to their already powerful ranks. There are many scourge with access to powerful necromancy, and of course, the growth curve would be exponential. Don’t even need to worry about feeding your populace, they don’t need food, apparently to the point the very idea of farmland
and plant life offends them according to at least one quest giver.

Unless part of that culture shift is a VERY sudden, VERY permanent, and VERY hard 180 on their current stance on necromancy EVER, that is asking for trouble that I am quite frankly sick of dealing with.

If the Forsaken keep as they are? They will hardly be any worse off. Let them deal with the consequences for a while at the very least, because as they are their way of

is by inflicting trauma upon others.

And I am so very sick of dealing with trauma inflicted upon me that I’m giving myself a 75-25 odds of flipping sides next expansion just so for once I’m not on the receiving end of it.

My avenue of the future for the Forsaken? Stop endorsing murder. But apparently that’s too radical a culture shift for you.

As far as I’m concerned, we put Sylvanas’ head on a spit, mount it in Darkshore or Gilneas, then we go back to all of our little zones and stay there, minding our own business only teaming up when the bi-annual apocalypse comes about.

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Yeah … it is very apparent you’re so mired in “the grass is greener” mentality and victimhood that you can’t see how bad its been for the Horde in BfA. You’re also very clearly of the type of Alliance player that views potential Horde stories; Horde races; and Horde Faction growth … through the lens of being convenient for the Alliance. You are right that there was a small, but loud, faction of Horde players that only cared about Sylvie, or defined the Horde far too much by being anti-Alliance; but on the flip side there clearly is an obnoxious faction of Alliance players that revel in the Moral Absolutism that Blizzard has allowed them.

And … what are you talking about? Freeing the minds of the Scourge has always been portrayed as a time consuming, effort intensive process … and in many cases … many of them are too far gone to save. Adopting such a method to continue their people wont result in their population exploding. On top of this, the Forsaken would be going back to the very foundations of their people, and by undertaking such an approach to continuing their race … they aren’t prompted to kill the living? Isn’t that a good thing? Especially when what they’d be doing is an admirable act, helping regain the minds and wills of people who for so long have been denied them?

EDIT: In order for the Forsaken to use freeing the Scourge as a means of “reproduction”, they need to find, isolate, and figure out what Scourge can even be saved first; and then attempt the arduous, massively time consuming process to see how much of that poor wretches “self” can still be salvaged. Its a very involved, requiring each case to be handled on an individual basis. They aren’t going to grow at an exponential rate. Its at best additive, not multiplicative.

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Point of order. Supporting Sylvanas is not the same as loving BFA, secretly or overtly. Most of us who supported Sylvanas did it out of spite for BFA specifically.

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Horde players, yes, going along with all the “morally gray” on all your characters regardless of your own desires is absolute twaddle. You have my sympathies, but you’ll forgive me if my sympathies are low.

The Forsaken as they are now are not all about reanimating the living, they are all about killing them, reanimation is secondary. They make liberal use of the Plague, which would defeat the purpose if they only attacked with intent to reanimate.

The Scourge can use the same techniques the Forsaken can, as well as still has access to necromancy. Let’s say only one in every 50 Scourge and one in every 50 Forsaken can do it.

That’s still not an additive rate.

And no, it won’t be too hard, pretty much all of the sentient Undead will already have been released. Helm of Domination’s busted, remember? Add in that you’re not particularly opposed to making Abominations, even the mindless ones can bolster the ranks.

With the culture as it is I’m going to have to say that’s a terrible idea for any semblance of faction balance.

Okay, and the support from 2010-2017?

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Yeah, despite all the BS Blizz throws our way, sure as hell beats playing a Faction with less moral ambiguity than the telitubbies; and fosters Racial Power fantasies so extreme they serve to do nothing but frustrate those that enjoy them. For gods sake, perhaps part of the reason Blizz has to villain bat the Horde to such levels is because they’re terrified of the response the Alliance playerbase would have if they inserted just the tinyest bit of “Grey” into their sterile white faction? Or, at least “Grey” that doesn’t have Blizz writing entire books to dilute and justify.

But … on the topic of the Forsaken. There is clearly no point in discussing their prospective futures with you, because you don’t believe they should have a future. They need to vanish from the story, since they cant be deleted from the game as a PC race.

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In what way, shape or form is not recruiting a massive race getting deleted from the story? Good grief.

1: Agreed, it does.
2: What do you want to bet I can find over 20 topics saying that the Alliance are absolute monsters?

Alternatively: you could look into the suggestion of snapping the villain bat in half already. I am so sick of this nonsense faction war. Let the Forsaken be, but for the love of god don’t bolster their ranks without any indication of any intent of theirs to do the same.

You say you don’t want to be villain batted, but you’re refusing the idea that we should just do away with it and instead give the race currently holding said bat the ability to take another swing with it.

If the Forsaken run out of Scourge to recruit from, will it be dying then? Straight off to war with the Alliance again, villain bat in tow? Perhaps hypercharging themselves with the aid of the Necrolords or something?

I’m good without the Alliance attacking the Forsaken, in fact I’d be opposed to them doing so, but I see absolutely no reason that the Forsaken numbers need to grow.

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What suggests the other races wont rebuild? I don’t understand your dispute on this topic. The implied expectation about discussing the “future” of the Forsaken, is that we are referring to their “future” in a world where all the other races are rebuilding as well. Humans, Elves, Trolls, Orcs … all popping out babies. The Forsaken cannot do this, and we don’t want them continuing to kill people to make up the difference, so why cant they be allowed to start freeing the minds of the Scourge? We are not discussing the continuation of their race, without considering by proxy that others are continuing. Of course they are, its the Forsaken that need a trick to do the same.

It takes more than a lapse in the Helm of Domination to free a mind so eroded and suppressed for so long. To bring a mind back to the mindless. Even the original Forsaken that were freed during Illidan’s attack on ICC needed a little help in many cases. Some outright needed the aid of another powerful undead to jumpstart their path to “Free Will”. Even Nathanos didn’t free himself. He was a mindless, rabid, husk patrolling his families farm when Sylvie found and helped free him. There is no indication that the total destruction of the Helm of Domination would do anything but present the opportunity to free those minds that can still, with serious work, be free’d.

EDIT: And as a side note, the Abominations in the Forsaken aren’t mindless. They are stupid, but they are not mindless. Which is why they are able to give you directions in UC.

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