I write this because it gives pause to my RP story and choice.
As a Scarlet Crusader and Pariah of the Alliance, as i have not technically killed anyone innocent personally, does it make me a villain?
Please note the definition of a Pariah vs the definition of a Villain/Criminal.
Moreso would it make me a villain of the Alliance for killing a Forsaken Argent Crusader?
Are they protected by Alliance law or given the same freedoms as any member of the Alliance, including passage into Stormwind or other alliance city or are they limited?
If i were to hunt them down along with any other undead outside of alliance territory, since i have no fealty or allegiance to Stormwind or its allies, would it still brand me a villain/criminal?
Or would i just be a Pariah, labeled at best a villain/criminal of the Argent Crusade but not of Stormwind?
Villain towards whom? The Horde definitely. The AllianceâŚeh. People will swear up and down that the Scarlet Crusade is either a) totally cool with the Alliance, b) secretly funded by the Alliance, and c) openly at war with the Alliance. And theyâre really passionate about their beliefs OOCly.
The Argent Crusade are pretty much heroes to just about every faction so killing someone in it is probably not going to make you the prom queen.
Thereâs nothing official, but Iâm pretty sure the Argent Crusade are savvy enough not to parade members of opposing factions in opposite cities just to rub peoplesâ noses in it.
If youâre a self described member of the Scarlet Crusade thatâs exactly what everyone is assuming you do.
I guess the last question to ask, if i were in stormwind and an argent crusader went to me to have me arrested for killing a forsaken member of their force.
Would the stormwind city guard arrest me or say to the argent crusader, âThats a you problem, not a we issue.â
I do wonder if they still have some validity or power considering they were created to fight the lich king, then they went to war against the legion and got smothered. Are they even anything valid or just a merc force with no villain now?
Just because something is destroyed or even mostly destroyed doesnât mean it no longer holds any sway. In a few years are people going to go âoh youâre in the Kirin Tor? Youâre a mage? Well if youâre so smart how come your city is so destroyed?â
And from what Iâve seen stealthing around Stormwind, thereâs always a handful of Stormwind Guard that will try to arrest anyone wearing the Scarlet Crusade tabard on site. Causes a big fustercluck of people to throw in their 2 cents, and usually the OOC brackets come out.
But the Argent Crusade donât really have legal jurisdiction to do things in Stormwind. They might request a guard arrest you and extradite you to Lightâs Hope or something, idk.
I had hoped the rule of thumb for scarlet amateurs would be to not wear the tabard in Stormwind. I donât just because it conflicts with my style. But people can still recognize a face if they see it, especially from a wanted poster or such.
I know the GM of the real < Scarlet Crusade >, so he doesnât strut it around ever.
Although the others ive seen only hang around in the Cathedral district making them immune to being arrested, but can still be asked to leave nicely before being forced out.
I keep forgetting the embassy in Stormwind is for the Argent Dawn, not Crusade next to the Census office.
You, as a Scarlet Crusader, would be more of a villain in Stormwind than an undead Argent Crusader.
Presumably, but one would imagine the Argent Crusade with its vast racial memberships would be smart enough to send envoys of Alliance races to the Alliance.
Youâre already a villain / criminal in the eyes of Storwmind and the Alliance by virtue of being a Scarlet Crusader. The Scarlet Crusade is the only thing we know the Church of the Holy Light considers to be heresy.
Actually do you have a source on this one? Itâs definitely not the only thing they consider heresy, given that list also includes:
The wc3 Fallen Priest creeps were heretics of the Church (wc3 manual)
The Kirin Tor have been considered heretics for centuries, the church hasnât been fond of their methods but donât actively fight against them despite this heresy (Road to Damnation)
Metzen has said the Church doesnât like the Scarlets/fully supports the Argents, but the only source I can find in a quick search saying they actually consider them heretics is the RPG, which is both non-canon and funnily also says they consider the Argents heretics as well.
Generally, the actions of the Scarlet Crusade are tolerated out of ignorance, and both the [Alliance] and the [Church of Holy Light] distance themselves from the Crusadeâs activities officially, but without trying to interfere.
That is posted on every Warcraft lore/wiki page. The alliance can never openly support our actions, and any survivor of Lordaeron would see our actions as valid, if it meant reclaiming their home at any cost but without involving themselves.
For this, it more than likely boils down to the Scarlet Crusadeâs stance with the Church of the Holy Light changing over time. Them going from perhaps slightly welcomed, to being seen as lost, to probably now seen as a mix of lost or maaaaybe heretical.
They definitely go against The Three Virtues, and showcase the evil side that Compassion can do to the world. The Church more than likely sees them as an example of what not to be like. After all, theyâve let their compassion for the world get the better of them and they start taking lives from others, severing their connection to the world and the Light. All of that.
I also imagine the Church probably doesnât care as much now since the Scarlets are more like⌠remnants.
Years later, following the war against the Jailer, the Bronzebeard brothers reported that even with their leadership wiped out by the adventurers, there are still enough members of the Onslaught in New Hearthglen to continue their twisted crusade against anyone they think an enemy. They also mentioned a surprising number of crusaders in the Onslaught Harbor.
Someone still has to keep the scourge in check i surmise.
Arguably two separate organizations, with the Onslaught birthed out of it.
I think in lore we are in an odd position where the Scarlet Crusade exists in some capacity still, we just⌠donât know how big. During Legion, a lot of role players presumed they were gone due to the DK storyline. BFA? Whispers of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Now with Shadowlands and then Dragonflight, suddenly they exist in some way again. We donât know how much (or if theyâll even pop up again). Itâs definitely a unique area in lore. Just like a lot of the rest!
Back to the original point of the post. Am i still a villain for killing forsaken as a scarlet even if they are members of the Argent Crusade?
Can you really accept a forsaken at your table more likely than a crusader?
Personally i have never taken a life of an innocent, unless there were physical signs of them being bitten/infected.
But i am at worst case a Pariah for not stopping to heal injured souls. Focusing only on taking down the enemy, leaving others to their fates.
Regarding the forsaken,
Alliance has to either accept them but not allow them in the cities, or still treat them as monsters no matter who they fight for. Once the fight is over and they lay down their arms, can you really just give them lordaeron? How long do you think a forsaken undead will live? Certainly longer than any mortal life.
I believe the exact term Metzen used is âChurch hates Scarlets, loves Argentâ, on that one twitter post from ages ago when asked.
In current times given how in the last expansion pack, Alliance went and slew a whole lot of Scarlets in the Gilneas campaign, Scarlets probably would not be welcome in Stormwind. That would be, imo, pretty weird. You went on a war campaign for the Alliance to retake land from a hostile group, only to shuffle back home to Stormwind to see the same group camping there.
At this point in time it would also help to note that âforsakenâ is a political alignment, which is âundead that belongs in the Hordeâ. âForsakenâ that gave Horde the middle finger and joined Argents, are just plain undead-undead. Itâs only due to game mechanics that the word âforsakenâ is used as a âraceâ.
So a âforsakenâ would probably not be very welcome in the city.
But an undead Argent I would imagine Stormwind would grin and bear it due to the Argent colours, in the same way Ebon Blade are allowed in the city. And Argents donât even have the dubious history as Ebons.
This was largely in the aftermath of the Second War and by the time of the Third War the Churchâs stance had done a complete 360 and loved magi.
Iâll admit that I mixed the two together but we do still have Metzen on record as stating the Church hates the Scarlet Crusade rather than merely dislike them and loves the Argent Crusade instead.
This is completely unsourced and the wiki even lists it under a section labelled This section contains information that needs to be cleaned up. Reason: Needs more facts, sources, and neutral point of view..
The only Alliance quests we have that involves the Scarlet Crusade is of the Alliance attacking them in reaction to Scarlet hostility towards Alliance personnel in Lordaeron. We even have an SI:7 operative stating sheâs yet to meet someone who approves of the Crusade and their methods.
Remnants of the remnants of the Scarlet Onslaught. They got culled thrice over the years and they never numbered many to begin with.
Forsaken? No. I could accept an undead bearing the colours of the Argent Crusade more readily at my table than I would a Scarlet Crusader - that undead by his existence displays him turning his back on the Forsaken and their deeds, while the maddened Scarlet still flies the colours of what amounts to a Legion puppet proudly.
Yes, your character is still a villain. Even if your character never kills anyone âinnocentâ personally, sheâs still cool with belonging to an organization that does it regularly. In other words, killing innocents isnât a deal breaker for your character. The people you choose to associate with are a reflection of your own values. So yes, Rhanda is a bad person.
It also raises interesting questions on how you define âinnocentâ. Everyone is the hero of their own story. I doubt youâd find a single Scarlet Crusader who believes theyâve killed an innocent.
I guess I donât understand the appeal of choosing to roleplay as a villain only to try to convince yourself and others that youâre not a villain, actually. Lean into it if youâre going to do it. Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
Better to be part of an organization that continues to fight for its home, even if most have fallen, rather than try to fit in as some false hero or lone survivor in Stormwind i guess.
As long as Crowley exists as evidence of the Church of the Holy Light accepting a Scarlet recruiter/promoter (since his quests were of the need for assistance type), they will never be gone.
Iâve seen people try to petition to have him removed to validate their ideals.
Think of it as someone who doesnât flee the border looking for a better life but chooses to stay and rebuild whatever the cost will be.
Said organisation being a creation of a Dreadlord of the Burning Legion whose only real true purpose was spreading chaos in the name of the Legion.
In Classic Crowley disappears after you complete his quest now, because his purpose has been achieved - there is no reason to recruit for a cause gone mad. In the canon lore itâs more iffy but itâs not entirely unlikely that he would have never existed given how virulently xenophobic the Scarlet Crusade became when most of their founding lore was retconned with the Ashbringer comic.
Weâre told the only reason Crowley isnât insane is because he left before the Crusadeâs downfall, heâs completely unaware of the depravity the Crusade has embraced in the north.
Trolling usually involves more swearing, foul remarks, or insulting of another intelligence. Or the exact use of the words âYou are wrong.â Letâs not go down that road please.
âThis is just an exchange of bullets.â - Sir Integral Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing.
Hellsing OVA.