He didn’t seem that bad, just power hungry
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Garrosh.
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Yeah, I think you’re right about his means to an end, but I will nitpick and say that while the Light can be manipulated into obeying anyone regardless of goodness, it only works if you believe that are good enough to use it. It works entirely off your internal belief that it will respond to you, and has absolutely zero connection to any kind of true morality. That’s why the Scarlets can use it: they believe that they’re good, even as they commit atrocities. Tirion was an absolute saint, but he lost his powers once simply because he talked himself into believing that he wasn’t. The Light is psychological in nature.
I think Gul’dan knows he’s awful and power hungry. He can’t use the Light because he wouldn’t believe that he could use it. If he talked himself into believing that his lust for powerful was good for the universe or something, and truly believed it, then it would respond to him. But that sounds far fetched for him.
Archimonde? You can argue that KJ was tricked and is stuck in his ways, but Archimonde is just a power hungry jerk even pre-corruption.
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The Light responds to a true conviction in a unifying force greater than yourself, it does not really seem to matter what that conviction is outside that criteria. It does seem to matter that you also see this greater force as a positive and unifying force, which is why the Scarlets could wield the Light—They see their cause as noble and just, thus the Light responds to their twisted version of the doctrines of the Holy Light just was readily as it does any other adherent.
For most cultures it is going to be faith in a higher power, but it could be a philosophical framework such as the Holy Light just as easily. Trolls wield the Light of the Loa. Tauren wield the Light of An’she. Kaldorei wield the Light of Elune. It is doubtful any of these entities actually provide Holy Magic. It is ironically the belief that they can do so that matters… which means actually realizing how the Light works risks destroying your ability to wield it.
Perhaps Gnomes wield the Light of Progress? …Actually, I like that. They 100% should do that.
Very much so. I often wonder if maybe it works in an even more general way and requires no belief in goodness, i.e: the Light can be used by anyone who believes that they can use the Light.
I’ve always thought it would be ironic if M’uru didn’t actually do anything at all for the Blood Knights, but they could use Light simply because they tricked themselves into believing they had the ability to.
Sylvanas is pretty much the worst character I can think of. Not only for her actions in the story but just because she has just become such a terribly written character.
She is not only guilty of a genocide but willingly committed thousands of innocent souls to the Maw the be destroyed or twisted into weapons of the Jailer.
The whole split soul story is just stupid and doesn’t account for her complete 180 of personality. Her motivations are just stupid and make absolutely no sense.
She is just a horrible character that needs to never come back into the story as it will only ruin the story more than she already has.
Otherwise Anduin is pretty terrible he is irredeemable as far as the story writers won’t ever make him act like he has actual emotions or proper reactions to events.
AU Gul’dan and MU Gul’dan were too selfish to serve the Light if it was offered. The elements rejected him due to the anger in his heart, and rather than let it go he doubled down. As a result, demons considered him an ideal candidate, offered him Fel, and we all know how that turned out.
I recently got back into Babylon 5. I found out the entity you refer to as “Dark Kosh” was named Ulkesh. While he was an AU version of Kosh and wanted to be called Kosh, his name was Ulkesh. And Xe’ra was still nicer than Kosh or Ulkesh.
And like I said; Sylvanas made Anduin the Jailer’s tool against his will, and Illidan himself did similar to Akama against Akama’s will… does that make those two irredeemable?
Tyrande put a pennance on the first and blew off the farewell letter of the second, but tht may say more of Tyrande.
And Xe’ra got a jobbing death by eyebeams and had pieces of her corpse used as a battery, so Sylvanas and Illidan weren’t the only ones who came up short (though Sylvanas’ is a strong yet fitting punishment… she must rescue the souls she condemned/DO MAW DAILIES! - just as I wondered whether there’s no justice in the WoW universe…)
Anyway, that doesn’t answer whether those actions of Sylvanas and Illidan make them irredeemable.
Ironically the Sylvanas Novel indicated that the loss of the Soul Fragment was making her become increasingly apathetic to the point where she might have not sided with Zovaal at all!
The reason the loss did this was likely due to Darkness growing into the void in her Soul at an increasing rate numbing her emotions.
If she still had that Soul Fragment she would have been more erratic yet still on Zovaal’s side and using traditional Mawsworn Death Magic instead of the Darkness that tainted her Soul.
They really wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
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As others have said - the path of redemption usually requires one being willing to walk it.
How many on those lists come close to traipsing the pathway?
For all the evils he has done, in the end, he fought beside Velen and Turalyon and Kadghar - even Maiev - to defeat the Legion and save Azeroth. Not exactly contrition, but I would say a mitigating circumstance - a bit of restitution at least.
Similarly, in the end, she did choose to turn against the Jailer, and help free Anduin, and save Azeroth. And afterward she submitted herself to the judgement of one of her victims. Which is a huge thing.
Illidan and Sylvanas at least worked to correct some of the chaos in their wake, and save Azeroth.
On the other hand :
These folks did not have any sort of qualms or compunction or contrition or anything of the sort. Xera and Garrosh were die hards to their own beat, until their deaths. Even afterwards, in the case of Garrosh. As far as Odyn, he has his own motivations that are not exactly clear - especially as we learn more about the Keepers and the Dragons.
Though, if we bring up the canon, it is hard to say - Pelagos seems a pretty lenient arbiter as far as punishment.
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Redemption is in the eyes of the observer so to speak.
In real life we don’t even have a specific set of morals we all completely agree upon. As an example, the death penalty is divisive (to some degree). Those practicing it are violating a moral value of a subset of the populace.
If a person has been the “executioner” (I’m sure there’s a better term) in some number of death penalty cases, an opponent of the death penalty would have a very different redemption requirement than a proponent of the death penalty.
And that’s just assuming that both individuals weight a given action the same way. If two people are equally opposed to the death penalty, it’s quite conceivable that they could disagree on what it takes to redeem the death penalty practitioner. Hypothetically, one might take the view of spending equal time fighting to prohibit the death penalty and saving equal lives from it before they consider redemption. Another might require an entire lifetime doing it and only consider them redeemed if they never stray and never cease until death.
Perhaps a more tractable question is whether a character can be perceived as justified in their actions (or in the case of WoW, how culpable they are since it relates to justifying their actions). Well-written characters have a “justification” - they believe they are right - but it’s debatable whether their actions are indeed justified.
Illidan worked with Kil’jaedan to try to kill off the Lich King. He killed some of his own soldiers to fight back the Legion. Were his actions justified? Maybe? I don’t know. I don’t think enslaving the Ashtongue was justified. But ultimately he played a pivotal role in defeating Sargeras - so does that make him redeemed? I don’t even know where to start answering that question. An emphatic I don’t know?
With that in mind, within WoW, I’d say almost any character can be redeemed because of time frames (and how things like death are merely a set back). While Odyn did wrong by Helya, if he took steps to help right that wrong (by magic!) and worked to be “better,” (pick a definition) some would consider it. I don’t see why not. If Chromie went to Garrosh and told him to avoid some of the things he did, and what would happen if he didn’t, would Garrosh be “redeemed,” or for that matter would he even need redemption? No idea.
Deathwing, Garrosh, The Lich King, and others have some degree of mitigating circumstances regarding their free will that might lessen their responsibility. Some of their actions were taken before being corrupting and leading to corruption, but others were done after. Anduin was completely controlled as were members of the Scourge. Do they require redemption? Anduin broke free of the Jailer’s control, with some help of us beating on him, and a pair of ghost dads, does that mean anyone else under the Jailer’s control is more culpable for not breaking free? What about those vis a vis the Lich King? With questions about their culpability, how can we rate what it takes for redemption?
Honestly, I have no idea where to even begin coming up with a moral compass to rate any of this.
I just try to be as consistent as I can and revise my stances on individuals whenever I get new/more information. My own personal compass is really just that.
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If Sylvanas can be redeemed, literally any character in the setting (except mine) can be redeemed.
You don’t top helping Ultra Satan damn every soul in the multiverse to the worst hell in the setting.
Sorry, not sorry.
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But Dread?! Didn’t you hear?! “She will never serve!” Totally redeemed!
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Pelagros is a male version of Sarenrae. He believes that over the scope of infinity anyone can be redeemed. That’s why he will close down the Maw after Sylvannas finishes her pennance of emptying it. That will take a while though.
The big reveal about the Vorlons ultimately was that Bright Kosh was the outlier of his people and Ulkresh was more the typical Vorlon in attitude. Ships that went into Vorlon space were never seen again.
Good.
(Seriously, the dude enslaved 100’s of people)
Based, the player character is a murder hobo anyway.
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You also forgot where he tried to control Outland through created drought. I think Illidan could probably overcome what he’s done, though.
And, you know, the genocide and punting tons of people to Super Hell. She’s probably irredeemable.
He’s redeemable but he doesn’t seem particularly interested in it. It was just one screwy act.
Redeemable. Same thing, seemingly one bad act.
Hard call. Maybe. He also killed and made many innocents suffer. But the scale isn’t super clear to me.
Scale of harm.