We were going to use one of our offtanks or dps warriors but had an awesome hunter step up and volunteer.
It’s not a total waste because they still have their pet dps, plus a little melee dps, plus they give the most uptime on the debuff. If you look at math people have done, the hunter doing it can be the highest possible raid dps gain for Horde.
If this is true, fair enough.
It does.
But all classes will take a significant DPS hit for keeping the buff up.
Paladins will lose a 20% reduction in glancing blow damage and lose 3% hit if not using a Sword or Mace. Considering thats an 8% damage loss on near 2/3 of their damage thats not fun.
Enhance Shaman aren’t too bad, especially if an Orc.
Paladins will get about 34 PPM.
Shaman will get about 31 PPM with Flurry and WF Weapon if utilizing SS.
Hunters with Wing Clip have weapon +40 GCD’s…but realistically its less than that…but they still have the best uptime, offset with the worst DPS loss.
However using a Warrior with Nightfall is a rather significant DPS loss, in part due to reduced Flurry triggers from an offhand.
Almost every other class can maintain better uptime, or not have their DPS bottom out as much as a Warrior.
What? No. A decent 2H Warrior can easily do 500+ dps. Problem is that it’s still crap compared to DW Fury.
Let us not forget that your raid should really be mostly half fury warriors, anyway.
You don’t give a full 15%.
No class has a 100% uptime. The best possible out of a hunter pushes maybe 50%. That’s 7.5% the dps of the casters. You can pretty easily lose that much to swing nightfall with wingclip spam.
You do know that hunters have the same problem, right? Pets don’t scale at all.
As far as paladins are concerned…
Things that proc nightfall:
SoR: yes
JoR: no
SoC: yes
JoC: yes
White hits: yes
Hand of justice proc swings: yes
Everything else: no
Overall the lowest to highest uptime rotations for paladin should be (SoC = seal of command)
SoC + Judge SoC
SoR + judge SoR (slight uptime gain, large drop in damage)
SoR + Judge SoC (larger uptime gain for the personal dps loss)
Seal twisting between SotC + SoR while judging SoC (good luck)
Paladin uptime should range between 30 and 40% depending on rotation chosen. If you can gain more than 1.5% of your caster’s damage by going for SoC over a more complicated rotation, do it.
Raids on classic don’t require warriors to be fury, let alone half a raid to be. You can clear all content with 40 druids if you want to.
Even if it was 50% uptime, it’s still a better overall contribution. Although in honesty we’ll probably give it to someone who can still be functional while proc’ing it.
I’m the nightfall swinger in our raid, hoping we have it for vael
Those numbers are massively out of whack.
I did some testing here
And even with how broken it is in retail those numbers are literally 10x the proc rate of it.
We were discussing opportunities to proc in a given minute varied between the classes.
Paladins 34
Shaman 31
Hunters 17 + GCD’s and mana.
Example…Shaman with a 25% proc rate, calculated after boss crit suppresion, +60% uptime on Flurry, ~15% delay reduction. Then of course 3 SS’s per minute and a 5 to 2 ratio on Windfury Weapon = ~ 31 Proc opportunities.
I thought given the context of the discussion that was self explanatory.
Considering the percentage of uptime discussion that was taking place on the proc, in addition to the mention of GCD’s for Wingclip for Hunters…
Hope that clears it up.
My apologies!!! Context is very important and I completely missed it.
Its also a uneeded debuff slot too.
Nope I’ll be in a half decent guild thus not needing NF.
So many people on here who have no clue how important keeping nightfall debuff is. There is a reason why it’s worth trading a hunter’s dps for it.
Hunters have the highest uptime BY FAR over any other class that can use nightfall. The reason is because wingclip is spammable and ret paladins / warriors have no spammable abilities.
From the logs I’ve seen… hunters are doing like 130-170 dps doing a spam clip rotation with nightfall, and are getting somewhere around a 25% uptime. With an average caster dps of 420, and a large count of 12 of them, the debuff is giving a benefit of 189 dps (and this is high).
Assuming a higher end dps by the hunter, 170, that brings their total dps contribution to 360…
I cant say that is particularly useful. I often see hunters above that.
Now… me on my ret paladin, doing a normal dps rotation get about 300 dps with nightfall. I only average around 15% uptime with it doing that rotation. Assuming I had the same casters as that hunter in my raid, I’d gain about 113 dps from the nightfall debuff.
Total dps contribution: 413
So… tell me again how hunters are better at this? I’m going to gain a hell of a lot more dps as I move forward into AQ40 and Naxx gear than a hunter will, and uptime is only half of the picture of what nightfall needs to do.
We actually gave ours to a druid tank.
Considering they cant use it for the damage or proc…
Do they at least get the fire reflect?
With an average caster dps of 420
Total dps contribution: 413
This is an argument that you shouldn’t use Nightfall at all (nor bring a Retribution Paladin).
Why? That puts the ret at around your caster average.
Unless you just hate rets…