Yeah, it’s great point and honestly why I have a hard time liking Anduin because his guilt feels weirdly misplaced. I think depicting what happened to him as traumatic is fine, being emotional about it is quite reasonable.
However, instead of: “Wow, being a King is hard. I’ve made a lot of really bad decisions despite my good intentions and Azeroth is actually a violent and terrible place” he’s instead like “Well, what if I liked stabbin!?”
… Really? There’s literally a whole neutral faction of folks you can talk to about this and who can absolutely relate to you without you having to abandon your kingdom and become Azeroth’s most suspicious hobo. He spent enough time following Sylvanas around in the Maw who arguably went through the worst version of exactly that.
Why not feel bad about the umpteen other horrendous choices you’ve made and things that have happened to you? But no, because he is the Alliance Golden boy, that would shine light on any flaws he could possibly have, so we’re settled on the whole ‘feeling guilty about something that was completely out of his control’ thing.
If Anduins trauma came from the fact that ARTHAS, the Lich king himself, was bound to him AND Zooval was using his body as a glorified meat puppet, with Arthas occasionally fighting for control, that should have been the source of his trauma
At least judging by the Anduin raid fight anyway, when Anduin says classic likes like Shalamourne hungers as a nod to Frostmourne and other similar lines with a twist
Precisely. Giving him actual flaws would be much better. Self-doubt, crumbling under the weight of his choices and leadership are much more compelling.
Yup. Having him still being afraid of losing his autonomy like that, being a ghost stuck inside his own body without being able to do anything. But no, they went with the ‘what if part of me liked it?’
Hell, we could have a quest where we go with Koltira and Thassarian killing some scourge and he talks to them about this whole kerfuffle.
Again, there is a difference between wrong most of the time and being only wrong.
I quoted it. Just google Garrosh Death cinematic and pick one. I was specifically referring to his fight with Thrall where Thrall kills him. Do you really know so little about Garrosh that you don’t know about it? Just wow.
It is not returning fire if you are the first one to start insulting a person.
And we get to the real reason for all your bad takes. Faction bias and anger over Horde story lines.
But let’s look at your statement.
Garrosh was always written to be a villain. The fact he took over the Horde is not relevant to that fact. This was not a question of the Horde faction leader being monster because he was Horde. Thrall was the Horde faction leader. Thrall screwed up and caused deaths. Thrall failed. Thrall never stopped being a hero.
And Anduin was not written to be a monster. He was used and he failed. Like Thrall he never stopped being a hero. Because the character was intended to be a hero. That is how writing works.
When a character is written to be a villain it doesn’t matter if the lead a race. Look at Staghelm. He was always written to be a villain. He died a villain. Being Alliance didn’t change the fact he was a villain. It didn’t change the fact that he fulfilled that design.
You know who knowingly put Garrosh in power, right? Thrall knew what he was like. Thrall thought maybe responsibility would mellow him, Thrall was wrong. That was a massive screw up on Thrall’s part. Thrall failed. Guess what, Thrall is still a hero.
See, I think your problem is that you are so biased that you think it is faction. But that is because you can’t see the forest for the trees.
There were Alliance villain characters. They didn’t get as much development time as Horde villains. But then again, the Horde has had more development time in general. But they do exist, like above mentioned Staghelm or Benedictus.
And there are Horde heroes that had fails and made mistakes, such as Baine and Thrall.
You have a narrative you are trying to peddle based on your own biases and you lack the ability and/or willingness to look beyond it.
As opposed to all the Horde characters that helped both Sylvanas and Garrosh but then everything was blamed on just Sylvanas/Garrosh and everyone else went free with no blame. See this is where you bias is clouding you. Plenty of Horde got off with no consequences. You are just upset about one or two characters you liked going a direction you didn’t intend.
The faction war stories were bad and should not have happened. Notably they were bad for both faction players. Stop pretending the Horde was the only one that had it bad.
Anduin in TWW cinematic does a good job of conveying the character and his inner turmoil. However, it is basically impossible to convey that kind of physical expression with the in-game engine, even the cutscenes, so the non visual parts really need to sell the characterization. Sad to say, it just isn’t there. The only impression Hallowfall → Azj-Kahet sold me on was he couldn’t use The Light but that he was definitely getting it back and soon.
My issue is that it is looking like the entirety of that inner turmoil is just going to be him whining about it for a little while in Hallowfall then resetting back to the same character with his Light back—that the mountain of struggles he is supposed to be enduring are getting hastily dumped into the “I can’t use the Light anymore” rucksack that he picks back up at the end of the Priory cutscene. No edge to the character, no missteps, no moral quandary. Just Anduin being Anduin but whinier.
Fifth obligatory reminder that Thrall is on his fifth expansion spinning his tires over his Mak’Gora with Garrosh. Still hasn’t figured out his shamanism issues, still taking off or putting on a single item slot every expansion.
Thrall made Garrosh Warchief. In one of the few time Garrosh showed self awareness Garrosh told Thrall he was not ready. Thrall still left him in that position with a mess going on. He offered no help or advice.
Thrall did not make Garrosh “into Hitler.” But he left a clearly (and knowingly) unprepared Garrosh to clean up a mess. Garrosh was correct to say Thrall left him pieces to pick up. Garrosh is correct to say Thrall failed him. The fact that Garrosh took that bad situation and did about the worst possible thing with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad situation to start with.
That is a fair complaint. Though I think a lot of it boils down to medium for story telling adding constraints that make it hard to really tell the nuances that are needed to make it a compelling arc.
And I think the intent is that not being able to use the light was more a symptom of the problems he is just slowly working through.
After having challenged Thrall to Mak’gora once already. Before accepting Makgora and upgrading it to the Death with Cairne to keep it.
But now you’re moving the goalpost.
You stated Garrosh wasn’t wrong.
Well what did Garrosh say?
https://youtu.be/3AlnE16-2NI?t=149
“You made me what I am!!”
No.
Garrosh lied and tried to shirk responsibility for his poor life decisions.
Thrall made him Warchief.
Thrall did not make him into a racial supremecist genocide enthusiast.
So, again, that you think Garrosh is right explains everything anyone needs to know about you.
There is a reason I mentioned it was one of the few times Garrosh showed self awareness.
And he fights to get/keep it were all about pride.
I don’t think you understand moving the goal post.
Was Garrosh correct Thrall left him with a mess? Yes.
Was Garrosh correct Thrall failed him? Yes.
Proof Garrosh was not:
Which was the whole starting point. It is not moving the goal post when it is all about the comment that started it.
I said Garrosh was not “only wrong.”
That only requires Garrosh to be correct about some things. Which I highlighted some of the points he was. It doesn’t mean Garrosh wasn’t wrong at all.
Do you work at trying to misrepresent what people say? Or is your bias just causing you to skim and fill in your own ‘head cannon?’
He made so many mistakes and the thing he’s sad and whiny about is the thing he had no control over.
He’s the Wesley Crusher of WoW. Everyone has to be made to look stupid and incompetent so Anduin’s stupid and incompetent decisions look better.
He’s out there sending troops on an INTENTIONAL suicide mission while one of his allies all but begs for support for retaking her people’s homeland. Then next time he shows up he’s crying about having to call up farmers to fight. All so he could invade a non-Horde nation to somehow try to force them to not join the Horde, because we all know sacking a city is the surest way to gain friends.
He’s sending so many spies into Orgrimmar to INTENTIONALLY make Sylvanas know there are spies. Getting many spies killed in the process. And then the colossal moron just accepts information the spies bring back at face value, as if it wasn’t incredibly obvious the Horde wouldn’t get real information in public when they know there are spies everywhere. And then on top of that he sends the night elf armies south based on that faulty information leaving Teldrassil wide open to be destroyed.
He went to Lordaeron, home of the Blight, without a single precaution for the Blight and had to be bailed out by Deus Ex Jaina twice in a single battle. Again resulting in the lives of many people being lost.
And somehow not a single person called him out on any of this absolute bat guano insanity? No one tried to make him step down? No one blames him? What in the hell?
I do not care that he’s sad he was forced to stab the tyrannical robot angel lady. I don’t care. It’s not even a fraction of what he deserves to go through.
He’s Blizzard’s precious blue eyed, blonde haired, white boy who can do no wrong. Nothing is ever his fault and no one is going to ever blame him. He’s going to come back to fulfill the idiotic chosen one prophecy because we all need the human savior to save everyone. Who cares that he can’t lead people out of a wet paper bag?
Why are you trying to argue Garrosh was a bad guy? Yes he was. Nobody is arguing that he wasn’t. He had few moments of clarity that were vastly overshadowed by his self indulgence and power hungry nature. While he was wrong and acted wrong most of the time, there were a few (not zero) number of times he was correct.
Are you really going to make the argument that Thrall didn’t leave Garrosh in charge of the Horde during a time of crisis? Really?!
The whole world was a mess and Garrosh was dropped in charge of a nation trying to recover from the disaster. Diplomatic issues, resource issues, lack of trust from other leaders, etc.
What are you even talking about.
Are you now trying to complain about the word “only” being argued. If you weren’t being literal why did you try to argue there was actually no time he was ever correct? You tried to push that multiple times.
If you are just going to pull another move the goal post or personal attack or strawman I am done wasting time. It has been a moderate diversion, but pointless to continue.
It was a small forced sent as a distraction which worked in doing exactly what it was suppose to, leave Rastakhan vulnerable. And even though he was killed/not captured the operation was successful enough that it was only week left before the Alliance won(minus Sylvanas going all deux ex machina with sinking the Kul Tiran fleet)
As for Tyrande the Alliance was actually close to victory. Had she been PATIENT she would have gotten what she wanted in due time. I am really hoping Anduin and Tyrande end up getting to talk sooner rather then later and have this business buried.
You stated he was being self aware.
I’m saying he was lying to look good.
Crisis?
Sure.
Deathwing arrived.
And Thrall left specifically to fix the Deathwing problem as the World Shaman.
But there were no pieces left by Thrall.
Garrosh’s falling out with the Tauren?
He was framed by the Twilight’s Hammer.
He had the evidence to present to Cairne.
He was too proud to do it.
Cairne demanded he step down.
He was too proud to do it.
Cairne challenged makgora.
Garrosh tried to scare him into quitting via To the Death.
Cairne stepped up.
Garrosh’s falling out with the Tauren was his own mistake.
Thrall had nothing to do with it.
Sylvanas had hell visions of Garrosh sending the Forsaken to pointlessly die against a wall without any strategy (where have we seen this before, Garithos?), so she came back to stop Garrosh from having her people killed.
Garrosh’s handling of the Tauren was wildly disliked by Vol’jin. Vol’jin made it known.
Garrosh’s pride was too much, so he started being racist vs the trolls.
And the blood elves?
Garry was missusing their troops, too, and that’s to say nothing of how he had the Sunreavers steal the Divine Bell.
Then he had them build a manabomb, which he used to destroy Theramore.
Which led to Jaina killing the Sunreavers.
Garrosh caused the pieces to fall.
Thrall had NOTHING to do with it.
And that you thought he did shows how little attention you actually pay to the story.
Literally nothing about Zul’dazar was a success. What are you even talking about? The whole point of sacking the city was to prevent them from joining the Horde, which they did immediately because the city was sacked. All those troops sent on the stupid suicide mission died for literally nothing.
The had already joined the Horde at that point, the entire point was to 1) capture Rastakhan(which they did fail at, but he still ended up dead) 2) destroy the fleet.
The fleet wasn’t destroyed because of sacking the city or the suicide mission. It was destroyed because bombs were planted on it months earlier. Bombs that could have been detonated at any time.
So no, that was not a goal of sacking the city. It was to capture Rastakhan(which failed) and to prevent the Zandalari from joining the Horde(which also failed).
