An RPer's reflection on Darnassus - four years after logging out for the last time

I’m not sure I find this fair, but I’ll try to go through your objections as I can here.

Your first paragraph I will say is spot on - this is why again, I normally try to pry out narrative story elements, and frame the conflict in a way that ends up as a stalemate and in a way that’s more ambiguous.

One point that I will also add before I progress into your points is that I did retain as a requirement that we still set up Shadowlands - this requires that Sylvanas is secretly trying to increase casualties for her plan with the Jailer. The big difference? The Horde isn’t made to commit and then defend a genocide. It gets filtered through the usual faction war lens. From there we get to matters of motivation.

One thing that I omitted is that Night Elves generally get blamed for the Blood Ball - mostly because the naga infiltration gets carried away on lines of magical addiction - and while the naga technically struck first, the Night Elves ended up backing up who they thought was their person. This induces the Nightborne to join the Horde, in addition to Tyrande’s comments.

As you and others have stated, the Horde past this should have reasons to feel as though they are not and did not strike first. Genn just struck the Horde at Stormheim, and now he’s perfectly happy to let Gilneas play host to what is increasingly looking like a Lordaeron expeditionary force. I don’t see how you slice that in a way that makes it not look like a dagger to the Horde’s throat - and a threat they must reply to.

Regarding the feint and the Horde getting “facerolled” -
One, I don’t think that’s a good characterization given that they just charged through Ashenvale and won several battles.
Two - they don’t get “facerolled” - both sides take significant casualties, and that was explained in the post.
Three - Saurfang’s pincer arm isn’t there, meaning that the Horde offensive itself is at reduced strength when they are turned away.
Four - The nature of the attack in the War of the Thorns was a blitz. They didn’t hold territory behind them, they didn’t bother with supply. That’s canon, and is demonstrated by things like the Alliance getting to a mostly empty-Astraanar. Hence if it lost momentum, all of its gains would have been lost.
Five - This was implied but not directly stated - but Saurfang is able to hold things down in Kalimdor after this. The Horde holds this front in a stalemate (if we see this front again, it’s in Warsong Gulch content).

This leads me to why the Horde would divert to Lordaeron - this is a good critique, and I can mend the issue that it highlights by just indicating that Sylvanas diverts there - and is using existing forces that she kept there to deter the Alliance from doing what they’re doing, under the assumption that she’d have been holding Teldrassil hostage. This would have the added effect of reducing the size of the attack in Kalimdor somewhat - so perhaps with the feint we get 6:1 - but then the reinforcements show and even the scales given that Saurfang’s pincer movement is elsewhere.

This leads me to retort 6: If the Horde gets “facerolled” in Kalimdor, the Alliance gets “facerolled” in the EK - and I want to emphasize that the Blight only turned the momentum. The Horde in the EK, as I said, take apart the Alliance offensive and chase it all the way into Gilneas. Any future content in this area takes place in the Battle for Gilneas battleground or the Arathi Highlands Warfront.

I disagree that Saurfang would be cast as dumber in this instance. He has more reasons to agree with Sylvanas, and with no Teldrassil, no reason to worry that she’s going too far. Your concern with Saurfang feeling like a passenger I suppose is warranted, but I am coming up with this on the fly. :frowning:

I hope that addresses some of your concerns.

As a note, the Horde never once “defends” a Genocide. It would be far more accurate to say that were never allowed an opinion on Teldrassil. Unless you were Saurfang or Thrall, who were kept deliberately away from the main story until was convenient for them to return, I think Teld is mentioned once in the entire Horde BfA experience. By Lor’themar, really offhandedly. Blizz literally hid the damned event as much as they could. It was frankly shocking. Even Baine wasn’t allowed to discuss it.

As for your solution. Honestly, whatever. It kind of comes off as just an excuse to put on the team jerseys and then return to the status quo when its time to get back to the “real story”. Which, feels like just a waste of time, and is super immersion breaking. Truly, when the Faction Conflict is treated like that there is nothing else that reminds me more that population numbers never matter. Which ironically serves to only devalue an event like Teldrassil. Since pop numbers don’t count.

Beyond that, you do you. I’ve just grown bitter and jaded being forced to be the weak, ineffectual villain who Blizz can’t bother writing reasons for antagonisms against the faction we’re constantly forced to be antagonistic against. Combine that with Blizz’s fixation on insulating the Alliance from their own few acts of grey, and over a decade of DEEP neglect from Blizz to ever even try to rebuild what they keep breaking on the Horde … the Faction Conflict comes with MASSIVELY negative connotations for me.

Its an ugly, weak, vial little story thread that Blizz just wheels out and uses as an excuse to turn the Horde into a plot-device to settup a future villain and future expansion. With little regards to what they do with the Faction after, so they can get back to their comfort zone of “Alliance and Friends” writing.

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Regarding your first paragraph, I will simply say that the problem is bigger than most of us would like to admit. There’s content on Scrolls of Lore where I’ve examined this question - I don’t feel comfortable with posting it here. However, that being said, there is a problem of complicity that I don’t think modern audiences are willing to forgive the Horde for - which makes the problem extremely egregious regardless of how much other leaders actually discuss it. I don’t think you should be saddled with that - no one should.

As for putting on team jerseys - yes, I think we should have that option. Engaging in PVP based content is a valid endgame choice. So is going after larger threats. Now, just like you, I tried to attack a narrow question, but if I’m to expand things out further to assess overall principles - my argument would be that no conflict should be so large that I feel forced to participate in it. It should motivate me to do so, and if it’s not interesting or important enough to me, either I just have different tastes that the other game mode might satisfy, or it quite possibly failed to be interesting.

As for your third one.

You are not wrong to feel bitter or jaded, and your concerns have merit. I played Warcraft 3 and I know that this was not what Blizzard sold to the Horde playerbase. It’s still not what they sold to the Horde playerbase, but they gave it to you anyway - and that’s enough to make a person feel betrayed, and demoralized. I have to admit that I can only guess at how to really fix that problem - and this is after speaking to a lot of Horde players about their concerns. All I can do is present ideas that appear to address the concerns that were mentioned in a way that’s balanced to my side as well. Eventually, I hope we can land on a good answer.

Also, while I know we don’t always see eye to eye, I am appreciative that you’re willing to spend time to talk about these topics with me, and to discuss how this game could be better for everyone.

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Genuinely, its more than demoralized. We’ve just grown apathetic at this point. Alliance players insinuating regularly enough that we’re bad people IRL for playing Horde, to Blizz’s own constant shaming of us for what they made our faction do … these would be bad enough. Our ARs (the only good thing we got out of BfA) having their reps verbally regret joining us, and comparing us to the Legion actually did really hurt. But beyond all that … beyond everything … its how bleak the Faction’s future story is.

I don’t see a way forward beyond simply us being made convenient for the Alliance and their story from now on. The only way we can prove we’re good is by simply being the passengers in what is supposed to be our own story too. I’m at the point where all I can hope for is back to absolute square one, and just having SLs build up Thrall, Baine, and Jin into the leaders they need to be for their people before we head back. One small personal character arc for each with a decent resolution and growth. And even that, with over a decade of deep neglect, feels like I’m asking for too much. Like we are not worthy of that much.

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I do hope that I haven’t come across as insulting you - and that I don’t in the future. I think the writers have written the Horde as bankrupt. I think it’s going to be a very hard road to rehabilitate the Horde. But, I do not agree that there is no way forward. Ultimately I think that faction war content is going to have to address that as well.

The contours of that, in my mind, consist of lore that demonstrate that the Horde is a) strong, b) deserving of the right to exist, and c) indispensable - and none of these things can be merely stated, they must be demonstrated. This needs to be framed in balance to an Alliance that is actually active and not reactive - and against one that is just as formidable - both on paper and in perception - as they are - but I think those three elements are what ought to be focused on.

a) is easy. You have a metric ton of past content, of art, of cinematics, and of content depicting the Horde as being dominant - even when the lore disagrees. You have a metal band, you have a statue in front of Blizzard HQ. a) is not an area that in all actuality needs significant help.

b) is the most difficult of the bunch, and post Warcraft 3, they accomplished that with the Demon Blood explanation, and by framing the human portions of the Alliance in a semi-colonialist/bigoted style. That’s still possible for much of the Alliance in the second instance, but as for the former - yeah, we need something either to say that regardless of everything that happened, you still don’t get to kill civilians just because they’re Orcish, or you need another demon blood moment. The latter isn’t possible, the Horde’s problems come from the ideology that Blizzard gave them, and Blizzard never showed them giving that ideology up - which leaves the first option in my mind.

c) can be accomplished in PVE content. Remember the Wrathgate cinematic where the Horde pretty much rescue the Alliance offensive - charging in on their wolves screaming “For the Horde”? That, think of that.

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This is just an easy default of Blizz to fall back to. And it doesn’t extend only to Orcs I’m afraid. They did it with Goblins in Silithus pretty recently, because they needed a reason for the Alliance to be allowed to slaughter Goblin civilians without it being an act of war. So, “Goblins being Goblins” attacked the Explorers League for no other reason than they’re Goblins. No other reason given. And unpacking that notion is a feat in of itself, but man … looking at how much they whitewashed the EL is ridiculous.

But, here’s sort of a microcosm of the Horde’s problem. Baine. We keep being told that Baine is “the best of us”. How he’s “the Heart of the Horde”. But we’re never really shown this. Instead, we have a character who’s own characterization needs have largely (and repeatedly) been thrown to the wayside in service of him being a “Token Good Horde Plot-Device” to offset some Horde despot Blizz is having their fun with. We keep being told Baine is representative of our Heart, but with how he’s used … does that mean the heart of the Horde is to be a Plot-Device? With characterization needs an afterthought?

And then we move in SLs … and “The Best of the Horde/The Heart of the Horde” Baine is clearly, without question, discarded by his own kidnappers as “Worthless”. In fact, he was so worthless that in the Beta, his original “escape” from Torghast was that he wasn’t even in Torghast. He was so worthless to the Jailor, he was discarded entirely by the Jailor, and we have to effectively buy him from Ve’nari. So, then, the “Best of the Horde” and “Heart of the Horde” is worthless? Well, that does line up with the final message (yet to be disproven) from BfA … “The Horde is Nothing” at the very least.

So, with Baine being one of only two living Horde representatives we have to rely on in SLs (and 3 Horde reps we might get to bring back with us), do you think “The Heart of the Horde” Baine will be given a chance to prove why and how he’s that (beyond being a “worthless” convenient plot-device who’s characterization needs are put behind the stories’ needs of him)? Or will Blizz simply have the big bull waiting around in Oribos pining for Anduin the entire damned expansion? What seems more likely to you?

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3?

Kael’Thas…and…who?

Thrall, Baine, Vol’jin. There are no other characters that we can expect to bring back to the world of the living; and thus will be allowed to play active roles. Neither Kael, nor Draka, will be coming out of this expac.

Also, weird cherry pick from that post?

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AND the Alliance Champions. This does put the Horde Champions in the loss column for both warfrronts.

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By not going into everything…I was just asking which 3 you meant.

For an expansion supposedly exploring the Horde trying to define what it really is, BFA did very little exploring. They don’t bother to explain how Sylvanas gets such high loyalty. She does uncharismatic villain speeches that somehow get the majority of the Horde population riled up in deep hatred and blood lust. Not that we see speeches she gave specifically to the masses, as we are just told about it from NPCs in vague statements about the populace. It then ends with no real reflection on her actions, just that she was doing it for her own supervillain scheme.

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Don’t worry! You just have to have faith in the “Heart of the cards Horde.” (Baine).

:pancakes:

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I think that if the horde was allowed to rebel IMMEDIATLY before the tree burned it wouldve maked a more nuanced story, in my mind it sounds like nonsense but here goes.

Imagine that saurfang was already the leader of the honorbound faction, and we are shown that faction heavly empathizes on defending civilians (it couldve been introduced on that quest where you have to choose killing them vs sparing them)
so you got a divide already with what has to be done to win the war vs losing the honor of the horde, then the burn happens.

Azerite couldve been used to instead of the shamans, they wouldve been too busy trying to douse the fire or trying to save the civilians you know? they dont like numbers but maybe say… 50-60% and do actually… heroic stuff because theyre not monsters right?, we actually get gray stuff since we cant say all of them are monsters because they just saved nelves you could have a divide on the alliance of the same kind because of this, tyrande and malfurion could be pissed with genn, alleria and rogers but now anduin and jaina and maybe turalyon have a case of the horde ACTUALLY trying to save civilians instead of more mustache twirling(there would still be a heavy territorial loss but maybe skewing that civilian number to 70 would work).

There are several problems with this but this like the war of thorns still looks evil but this would be better than the crap we got, loyalists would still be able to choose to side with her with the excuse that sylvanas claim that they had something on the tree that was dangerous (which would be a lie that the honorbound couldve discover, she is leaving anyways).

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The issue with this is the same issue we already had. We ALREADY had the whole civil war thing!

The big takeaway from MoP was that the Horde was a family who stuck together through thick and thin. Instead of building on this for who the Horde was, BFA decided to bang the same gong. There was zero reason the Horde had to have two civil war arcs, especially two that had the same message.

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i mean… yes i acknowledge there were still several problems with that take, and i agree repeating mop was a mistake, which is why one of the things people hoped that the alliance attacked first.

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I didn’t. Because Blizzard would have buried them under so many justifications and excuses that the Horde would have been the villain at the end no matter what. The Moral Absolutism of the Alliance needs to be maintained. Always maintained. So if Teld was Blizz just villain batting the Horde to settup SLs, I can only fathom what they would have had to do to turn the narrative on the Horde if they were the defenders of said story. Because Blizz cannot allow for a single bit of tarnish on that pristine Blue shine.

The Alliance are the living incarnations of every virtue ever conceived by man. And the expectation truly does seem to be that they be allowed to always be ALL Good, and ALL Powerful. And as long as that is maintained (and clearly expected by many Alliance players), there is no such thing as even the possibility of a “Good Faction Conflict” story. It will always default to Good vs Evil, and the Horde is always the evil.

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It’s just…cringe inducing and nauseating that people actually want this for this for the alliance. It’s boring and not fun to play and why the faction conflict is ALWAYS doomed to fail. Because like you said, the alliance is never allowed to do anything resembling a dark act. Look at Stormheim, they had to immediately bury it under 6 mountains worth of justification so the hardcore alliance fan base didn’t throw a fit about it.

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Its interesting too. Because there is definitely a certain segment of the Alliance playerbase that is frustrated with BfA largely because Blizz is using the Alliance’s Moral Absolutism as a tool to restrain what normally is their Absolutist Power Fantasy. Its one thing they enjoy being used in a negative way to stymie another thing they enjoy. Rather than like in an expansion like Legion, where both were working cooperatively.

Thus, the expectation is the Alliance players be allowed to do exactly the type of crap the Horde was forced to do; but get it all handwaved away and justified into a pristine white shine. Its why I seriously do think its very possible that Yrel and the Lightbound (should they reappear again) will have that exact thing done to them. Unlike the Horde, who truly was just made an unwitting tool for an act of genocide (and then for plot convenience wasn’t even allowed to comment on it), the Lightbound appear to have successfully committed a prolonged, intentional, systemic cultural genocide against the other cultures of Draenor. How much you wanna bet that gets twisted into something positive or diluted to nothing in some way?

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Oh, I have no doubt it will be handwaved away with the usual She was secretly controlled by the Uber Evil and since she broke free all is good, glorious and forgiven :face_vomiting:

Like I said, it’s not fun, it’s not interesting and sure as hell not engaging when you know your side is never allowed to be anything other than the most perfect of perfect angels who simply can’t even CONSIDER doing a grey act. Look at Genn, he went from being a guy willing to do anything to keep his people safe, to a glorified anduin bootlicker, and he’s a character I love

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First - sorry for the delay in this response. I’m generally busy on weekends, this one was no exception.

It was never intended to extend only to Orcs - the concept was more abstract in nature.

To the rest of this post - Baine had a role to play, and he played it. I’m not saying this to defend their actions, quite the contrary, because they needed an escape valve from the good versus evil story structure that they wanted to impose on the faction war. Baine and Saurfang filled that role this time, Vol’jin filled it last time. They didn’t think about these characters all that much after that point. Vol’jin would go on to become a Loa, sure, but it’s telling that he did nothing as Warchief but get killed in order to make room for Sylvanas. I don’t think they’ll have much in mind for Baine either.

In my opinion, the good versus evil narrative exists so that Blizzard’s Old Guard can get in their Warcraft 2 fantasies of brutalizing the Alliance while keeping the two faction system around for another go. Baine can “rescue it” on the carpet of higher morals that Golden Anduin lays out - and we can go back to the franchise writers trying to ramrod an RTS story back into an MMO again, despite that it has no place there.

Both of our problems come from the same source - and this is why I take issue with how this conversation progressed while I was away. You jumped into a thread where I shared a quite personal take and explanation about why I feel the way I do, and then tried to make it about your concerns. I initially was planning to withdraw from conversation because it looked like it was going to backslide into the typical, and pointless “who has it worse” conversation, and was pleasantly surprised by your willingness to engage in a conversation - but it’s gone by the wayside here. Why are you attacking Alliance players in post 540? Is it possible that you’re responding to a personal caricature and not the genuine article? Because the way I see it, we’re getting screwed by our appointed position, just like you are. I feel like at times though that you’re not willing to acknowledge that.

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