You mean when it had no story?
Not really. When it was a most a C Plot perpetual cold war (that always HAS to exist for the PvPers to pretend they care about the story) … that made increasingly less sense to exist? Yeah, no. That’s exactly what I said it was. Its people conflating their positive and memorable experiences with a game mechanic with actual good storytelling for the Faction Conflict. Its the dopamine called Head-Cannon.
Having no strong cohesive narrative is not the same thing as having no story. You’re discounting the various elements other THAN narrative that are part of story. Environmental design tells a story. Game mechanics help to tell a story. A random NPC who sells you bread and occasionally has comments helps to tell a story. Your personal journey concerning who your character is and what decisions you made to get them there? That’s a story.
The ubernarrative is not a necessary component to an MMO. I would in contrast argue that it’s the thing that’s killing this one.
The only way to concievably fix BfA, is to not have BfA, if that’s your metric. The only way to possibly have a good Faction Conflict story was to have never killed off Vol’jin. The moment Blizz placed Sylvanas “New World Order” Windrunner into the drivers seat of the Horde … was the moment any chance of an even slightly nuanced Faction Conflict story could be written. And that factor tripled when you placed Anduin in charge of the Alliance. The Golden Child of Golden who’s the flawless moral compass.
You can NOT even hope to have even a slightly well written Faction Conflict story if one of the Factions maintains Moral Absolutism. You can NOT even hope to have an even slightly well written Faction Conflict story, when the Aggressor of the conflict isn’t allowed to have valid reasons for being aggressive (because to do so would tarnish the Moral Absolutism of the other Faction). Above all, you can NOT have an even slightly well written faction conflict when the always kept weaker of the two factions always is forced to punch outside of its weight class. Because “MORAL ABSOLUTISM!!!”
So … my solution merely allows the Horde players a chance a window to becoming heroes again. Rather than what we’re left with now, where the best we can hope for is being the optional side-kicks to the Super Friends Alliance. Which Blizz does seem committed to. Both Baine and Calia are indicative of their drive to merely make the Horde convenient for the Alliance’s story from now on. They got exactly what they wanted out of BfA. The perfect excuse to maintain the Horde as sidekicks in our own story perpetually.
Droite - Zahir’s point is that your solution only fixes the Horde’s issues - and I agree with him. It certainly leaves me and my concerns out in the cold because I’m still being victimized to kick off the whole thing.
That’s the problem with these massive uprooting events. The problem doesn’t end with Horde motivation. I’m completely demotivated to play for the reasons I expressed, and I don’t feel that your proposal even tries to resolve those matters.
Like I said, the only way to fix BfA is to not have BfA.
And frankly, I’m locked into Faction who’s riddled with people now who’s ONLY virtue we can have is how submissive and Alliance convenient we are; and can never be portrayed as heroes again. My character roster is a husk, with no chance at being rebuilt (in a game that demands you have strong hero characters if your PC race wants any relevance). Several of my PC Racial Narratives are left deader than the Forsaken. My Faction Identity is in ruins, and likely can never be repaired… I haven’t been allowed Faction Pride in over a decade. The only good thing I got out of BfA (the ARs) actively regretted joining the Faction, and I don’t blame them. And Blizz has deliberately and repeatedly been shaming my Faction and its players for what they themselves forced us to do. Which is fine, as it matches the regular undertones of a small but pervasive amount of Alliance fans telling me I’m a bad person IRL for playing Horde for the last 2 1/2 years.
So … outside of not having a BfA, the only thing I can think to fix BfA is to at least to allow the Horde to have motives for what it does beyond “Lol, they’re Goblins, its what they do!” … and have the courtesy of giving us some out. Some avenue to letting us at least pretend to be heroes again. Which Blizz did not allow. You wanna fix the NE’s part of BfA? Fine, just give them what their players clearly want (but don’t like to admit). The NEs being portrayed as more powerful than the entire Horde combined; and thus reasserting the idea that the Horde is never allowed any semblance of Power Fantasy if it ever infringes upon the NE’s.
Yeah, but like Kyalin and Zair pointed out, it doesn’t the fix the very real problems alliance and its players are suffering from too. There’s two major fan bases alliance side(Worgen and Kaldorei) that are used as punching bags for any sort of Faction Conflict and most of the time it’s just Humans and their side kicks. It took all the way until Legion for Velen to finally get some character growth and actual screen time for example.
Trust us when we say, alliance side isn’t as good as people like to claim it is. We’re forced to be incompetent for trusting the horde when they commit yet another atrocity and are never ever allowed to have a true victory over the horde.
You want to know what would really be a solution?The conflict would be gladly started in Lordaeron. Turalyon and Calia are fighting to reclaim their homeland. It goes all the way to Undercity, caught cold by this attack, but the Forsaken still manage to hold on until the arrival of the alliance army loyal to their alliance partner. In the end, Sylvanas destroys Undercity to spite Calia and Turalyon into the face. In Kalimdor finally the counterattack. The night elves and worgen and draenei manage to hold on to the border between Darkshore and Ashenvale. There a frontline is formed, the first warfront.
There is a back and forth, without a clear winner and the death toll rises. Meanwhile, Sylvanas knows she has Teldrassil to destroy, so she secretly joins forces with Azshara and leads a small troop of her Darkrangers. She was able to sneak past the front line. Together with Azshara, she eventually destroys Teldrassil and the genocide happens. Shocked by the sight, the defenders’ morale collapses and they are forced into retreat. Darkshore is occupied and the defenders retreat back into the wilderness. There, seized by blind rage, Tyrande becomes a Night Warrior. Inspires the hearts of worgen, night elves, and draenei alike. The counterattack begins, the warfront begins anew, but this time more terrible than ever. With insane speed, the horde is beaten back further and further.
Saurfang, shocked by the events, senses that something is wrong, even Sylvanas explanation doesn’t quite make sense to him (Azerith blown up, unstable!), but he only finds out the truth in Nazjatar (He had been sent there first to die, secondly it was all the great plan of Sylvanas and Azshara. ). This ignites the rebellion, the Horde sees that it is only a tool, a tool for mass murder, it is not about peace! The Horde does not want to be that. Anduin - who until then coordinated the war in Kul’Tiras and the eastern Kingdoms - is finally consulted and confronted with the truth. All this serves only one purpose: the factions should destroy each other, but the war is too hot, the hatred too great. in the first second, he don´t even believe it.
But there is still a problem. The former defenders, led by the Night Warrior, beat the Horde back to Azshara. But none other than Sylvanas comes to the aid of the Horde. No matter how terrible and terrifying she has done, she cares about the Horde, in her own way. So she fights against Tyrande. IN an epic first battle of hunger for more powerwoman fight, it comes to a draw. Weakened, both must retreat. Finally, on the other sides of Orgrimmar, the resistance slowly fights its way to Orgrimmar. Saurfang challenges Sylvanas to the Mak’gora to atone for her actions, he dies in the attempt, but proves her true colors, that she was only using the Horde, a tool of murder!
She finally disappears with the words, “The horde is nothing!”
Eh, it was by the intervention of Velen in TBC that the Sunwell was restored, wasn’t it? Yeah, didn’t have much after that I think.
Showing up briefly at the end of a raid patch hardly counts as character development and you know that
So your solution is … to simply have the Alliance attack the Horde first, giving military authority to two characters with no military authority to do so. Then the Horde is forced to commit atrocities under Sylvanas anyway, ensuring that like always any moral ambiguity is thrown entirely out the window through the flash and spectacle of a Horde atrocity. And more Horde infighting, eventually leading us to side with the Alliance to clean up our own mess. But still shackling us with another genocide.
Then of course “the Horde is Nothing”. Which is something that wouldn’t hurt so much, if Blizzard constantly didn’t prove it true. I have no doubt in my mind that they will put more work into “redeeming” Sylvanas than proving the Horde is worth anything more than an optional side-kick in the Alliance’s story. And that reality would not change in your version. I truly see no out for the Horde, even in this version.
Turalyon has authority, over an entire race, he is a council member and many Lordaeronians in Stormwind would rather see the Forsaken gone sooner than later.
It is not the Horde that causes Teldrassil, the Horde even reveals the truth. It was Sylvanas and Azshara who were secretly conspiring.
even the horde did it not, thats even my point. The horde was only framed for it, but in the end, it was only sylvanas and her loyalists.And that is found out by both factions.
And instead of starting a sad story about suicide, it shows that it was ultimately the HORDE that got to the root of the truth.
Well, he can add ‘Savior of the Sin’Dorei’ to his resume.
I suppose so 
So what? We still enabled it. I mean for gods sake, technically the Horde was merely a witless tool for a genocidal act in our current BfA. No one, other than Sylvanas and maybe Nate, knew she was out to eradicate the NEs. There was no attempt or intent by the Horde to exterminate them before Teld, or after Teld. In fact, Saurfang’s entire plan depended on their nation and leader’s survival to work. Sylvanas was also the only one to even know on the Horde side what awaited them in that tree. The moment you attach the Horde in any capacity to an event like Teld, is the moment all nuance goes out the door. And “getting to the truth” would only result in the Horde turning on Horde again for the Alliance.
Like I said, there is no real way to fix BfA. Like the Faction Conflict, it was flawed and shallow from its inception. The only possible way you could have hoped to have even a nuanced faction conflict story is if (at bare minimum) Vol’jin was still Warchief. But the moment he died, all chance of that vanished.
But that would also happen in your example. It would enable the horde in one way or another.
The rebellion does not start because of the alliance. The alliance must be brought to stop the conflict, because you can’t rebel with an enemy behind you.
It still requires us to be used as tools to be used as tools for Sylvanas to commit a genocide. I also note that there is absolutely no Horde power fantasy or Faction Pride found anywhere in your solution. And would have in my Entrapment solution. Beyond us turning on Sylvanas, which we did anyway. There is also no tangible resolution to the Alliance pre-emtive attack against the Horde … as (just like Theramore frankly) all Alliance aggression proceeding a flashy Horde atrocity is forgotten.
Your solution may fix a lot of the Alliance issues, but none of the Horde’s. It still leaves our Faction Identity in ruins. It still leaves our character roster a joke. It still leaves several of our Racial Fantasies deader than the Forsaken; and absolutely still leaves the Forsaken in a disgusting spot. We’re still portrayed as weak, flawed, ugly little monsters that will follow any despot far longer than we should; and still need to be saved by the Alliance. Who again, get totally validated in their preemptive attack on Sylvanas because of what she did. Their Moral Absolutism is maintained with a flawless shine. Just like Stormheim.
EDIT: And as a note, my “entrapment” solution doesn’t actually make the story better for the Horde playerbase. It simply makes the story that we were given make more sense, and gives the Horde a reasonable out we can work towards for some sort of redemption. Trust me when I say that no Horde fan would enjoy playing what I suggested with my solution. Its just more functional.
I only put out stories, not power fantasy. And to have won a warfront an entire patch that then reignites story-technically in a questline is something, especially when really fighting for it. Also the Alliance has no power fantasy for me. It took all the power of the Alliance Army to get Sylvanas to destroy Undercity. And the counterattack in Ashenvale cost the elves everything and it took the Worgen and Draenei to hold out. Tell me, where is this a power fantasy?
You mean because of Tyrande? That’s just to build the sl story around her, to show what the Night Warrior is and why it makes sense why she can hold out.
The Alliance is still very much maintained as the more powerful faction, its just their own ideals were used as a means to shackle them. Tyrande and her NEs still essentially solo took back Darkshore on their own. The idea that Sylvie robbing you of your prize “to break the Horde’s toy, cuz they broke mine” doesn’t detract from the fact that Alliance is portrayed as dumb as bricks … with the power to compensate. And its shocking how many people use the idea that the Horde gets to even exist at all anymore as Blizz robbing them of their power fantasy. One they absolutely enjoyed in Legion.
There is no way to fix BfA. There is only ways to make it more cohesive, and improve small moments. Like, Tyrande should have killed Nate in Darkshore. There was no value at all to him dying in the prepatch, she should have killed him then. The Horde should have been allowed an “entrapment” narrative. Which in no way would have made for a more pleasant Horde experience, just a more cohesive one. And one that might have allowed for us to move on to SLs without constantly getting shamed by Blizz’s owns damned writing team for what they themselves made us do.
Tyrande, the Ne, the worgen, the draenei. And at this point, the horde was splitted. Between Loyalists and Rebells, you know? it was not “Solo took back Darkshore on their own”. I even descripted it.
So your expectation is that they be allowed to solo the entire Horde combined? That is actually your solution. The Horde is united when they force it back, they get their heroic moments … and the Horde still gets the villain bat. And even though the Alliance started the War, it doesn’t matter. They’re 100 percent validated because of what Sylvie intended and did.