Dwarf fans have all the reason in the world to be vocal. But they aren’t. They don’t get stories period. They are almost as neglected these days as Gnomes and Tauren. Which is a shame because they are one of the more interesting races of the Alliance; and Muradin should absolutely be the Alliance High King (if such a position need exist). Human fans just hate on Anduin … and that’s about it.
Sigh … I think what I always think about NE fans. They are very passionate … about NEs … and exclusively that race. That passion doesn’t often expand to other PC races, unless (like the Worgen, and occasionally the Tauren/Draenei) that passion is to make those races and their fantasies convenient for the NE’s.
With NE fans it always boils down to We want special treatment from Blizzard, but when things don’t go the way we want, we scream that blizzard has a deep seeded hatred for only night elves and their fans
Why should it? Why is it my responsibility to advocate for Dwarf fans if they won’t advocate for themselves? I’m all for fans of other races speaking up. You can look at the threads I’ve created and see that. You’ve posted in both of them. But it’s not my job nor my place to speak up and make demands on their behalf. I don’t know what they want from their fantasy nor do I pretend to know.
This doesn’t exist. This thread, and many others, is focused on Night Elves and not once has this happened in those hundreds of posts.
I don’t know if I’d got his far beyond a very frustrating vocal minority, but a good example of what I mean about “making other races fantasies convenient for the NE’s” is when there was that huge fallout about Anduin not helping open up a Darkshore right that very moment. There were so many calls for the NEs to “leave” the Alliance from NE players (at least in some narrative capacity), and rage about Shandris being … relatively level headed about it. However, on some level, many of those fans realized that they couldn’t justify such a split on their own … so they wrangled in the Worgen+Draenei.
Who’s racial fantasies would it serve for the Worgen and Draenei to leave the Alliance to justify the NEs leaving “in some narrative capacity”? Well, the NEs. The NEs have had plenty of time to try to help the Worgen reclaim Gilneas, but haven’t, so in their post Teld state the Worgen resettling in Kalimdor would not be an impetus to push the NEs to help reclaim Gilneas. As for the Draenei, they may owe the NEs to some degree … but culturally they mesh far FAR more with the Humans of Stormwind than the NE’s. It benefitted neither group to even consider leaving the Alliance; it only benefitted the NEs for them to.
Droite - I have to say that I’m a little confused at this point.
You’ve stated that you agree that the Night Elves are in a bad spot. Just about everyone here, myself certainly included, has noted that the Horde is also in a bad spot. No one is disagreeing with you on that, and yet here we are. I noticed that you and others do this thing where if someone mentions that the Night Elves are in a bad spot, you feel compelled to say “yeah, but I have problems too!”
Do you feel that such doesn’t get enough discussion?
Do you feel that it’s an either or thing? As though only one side may have problems at a time?
Do you feel that there is a need to definitively establish who has it worse? A nigh impossible task given the apples to oranges nature of such a comparison?
Do you feel that statements that Night Elves are in a bad spot are some kind of statement that the Horde doesn’t have issues?
Do you believe that it is impossible to fix Night Elf issues and other issues at the same time?
Is there some other reason that I missed that might be motivating you to post in this manner?
I’m curious because we keep running into this wall where one person says “I have it bad”, and the other person says “well I have it bad too!” and they spend a hundred posts trying to invalidate each other. Can you help me with how we get past that? Because on paper I thought we agreed that both sides have problems, and both sides need those problems fixed?
I’m sure I’ll get to whatever the other seventeen posts are later, but, can we talk about this?
You’re right. That was the worse thing blizz did. And it’s not fair for the fans of those races too. I’d come up with a snarky comment to finish this off, but I’m tired
I’ll freely admit that I’m one of those players. Anduin lied. Flat out. I’ll stand by that opinion till the end of Warcraft. That’s my personal opinion on the matter. I’ll even go a step further and say that yes there were some Night Elf fans that wanted the Worgen to leave with them. There were arguments to be made for that and Genn himself going against Anduin to assist in Darkshore fueled those fantasies misguided as they may have been. They weren’t mine. But they were there. And you’re right. It probably would have served the Worgen Fantasy in any positive way.
Beyond that I’d respectfully request that you don’t include Micah in this when all they can seem to muster is senseless insults.
Don’t go there. I can be a really reasonable person to talk to. You don’t get to decide who gets to be involved in a discussion. Droites is an adult who can respond to whoever she pleases. Me and her have had a ton of pleasant discussions
I will go there when you’re posts are nothing but senseless insults. If you want to assert that you’re reasonable then be reasonable and engage in the discussion with the same civility that me and Droite are right now. Until then I’ll simply go back to ignoring your inflammatory behavior and hope that Droite affords me the courtesy of doing the same.
I’ll admit that I have my personal biases with the NEs. I like that they’re powerful, I love that they are this distinct group within the Alliance, and generally I love their history, culture, and characters. I just, on occasion, find their conceptual Racial Fantasy oppressive (not the one given, but perhaps more the expected one). The races of the Horde don’t have this deep, rich history to return to. Many just can’t, even if they do have it or wanted to. Which means for a lot of Horde races … what is more important for them is the future. Where they go, rather than where they came from.
Bluntly, in hindsight, it was a mistake to place such a Faction like the Horde next to such a race like the NEs. The two groups are way too culturally incompatible on some very foundational levels, which guaranteed conflict. And even if Blizz was willing to be more even-handed about it (and more nuanced), those conflicts would result in spitting matches between the two. And thus, clashes of power fantasies. Which … again, the cultural incompatibility and racial fantasy incompability of both groups would render stories from this very unpleasant for both sides … even if Blizz had nuance. Which they dont.
My thoughts … we need to get out of eachothers hair for a while. We need breathing space. We need an anti-cata type expansion where we don’t even need to think about the other for a time. Blizz needs to stop forcing us into situation to compare Incompatible Racial and Power fantasies. Its not productive.
How about if they go through with the rumored time skip? That will do wonders for the game…give everyone the much needed distance from the whole BfA fiasco.
Can I ask you to entertain my curiosity and tell me why this isn’t the same for the Nightborne? They have the same history as the Kaldorei and arguably are far more mired in that culture you say is incompatible with the Horde than the Kaldorei are. They still have their shining Suramar and position of comfy privilege.
I’d rather come back to this after if you’re willing to indulge me but as a simple and short response I’m forced to disagree with this notion because it leaves me in a position of not being able to engage in the faction rivalry that I used to play retail for, for more consecutive expansions.
Oh man, you’re doing your faux Horde sympathy thing again.
Just a warning to Droite: Don’t buy it. Kyalin does this all the time whenever she interacts with anyone she deems a Horde poster and then becomes vile the moment you disagree, revoking her Horde sympathy and saying she never should’ve tried.
I mean, I am going to say that I don’t think that’s possible in the present moment. Like it or not, the game has established that the Horde, which again is our faction rival, has repeatedly visited grievous harm on the playable race, and that’s something that filters down to the rivalry, which is more personal than a bout with Azshara or the Jailer will ever be because there are other people on the other side of it. So long as that situation is out of balance, and it IS out of balance, this will be a problem. Ignoring it and preventing things from getting back into balance will not make things better.
This is why I advocate for the Night Elves striking back hard in Northern Kalimdor, and why I simultaneously state that something needs to be done to make the Horde more relatable, and get them out of that expansion villain box. It’s why I say that the Forsaken need their territories and identity back, and why I think the humans need to lose some of their moral certitude. I don’t see it being possible to get this rivalry back in a healthy state, where again, we can get those power fantasies from actual PVP instead of praying for fiat wins.
Because the Nightborn, like the BEs, are these flawed, dickish people in this flawed dickish culture. The Elves of the Horde are always a little twitchy, but generally I accept them because they don’t have the luxury of distancing themselves from the very flawed Highborne society they deliberately emulate. The BEs may post “sins of the father” generation drift, and the NBs may boast “we stayed neutral” but that link to their past is overwhelmingly there in their racial fantasies. It is something they must overcome, and something they cannot go back to. Which coincides with the Horde. No luxury to escape ones past.
However, due to the NEs essentially “rebranding” themselves and freeing themselves of the shackles of that past (they deliberately attempted to destroy what remains of the corrupt Highborne civilization) … they don’t have those same connotations. As many, MANY Alliance fans will remind you. The NEs are NOT the Highborne, and share little (if none) of the accountability for the Highborne or Azshara’s actions. That deliberate distance and severance from the negative parts of their culture is the difference. That core cultural point is why I am more forgiving of the very flawed NBs and BEs … than the nearly spotless NEs.
Aren’t you discrediting the Night Elves a bit there? If the quality of the NB and the BE that you admire is that they’re in the same situation of “No luxury to escape ones past.” I mean the Night Elves don’t have that luxury either and they own up to arguably more than the Sin’dorei or the Nightborne ever have. They own up to it such that they vehemently reject even entertaining the notion of going back to it. They strove to prove that they’re not shackled by the past.
I would think that kind of message would resonate with the Horde. Perhaps even the Orcs especially in a different universe.
My opinions on territories are pretty … controversial on here. For EK, I genuinely do believe its better for the Forsaken in their current state to give up all holdings in Hillsbrad, Gilneas, and Southern Silverpine now that Stromgarde is rebuilt. Its too dangerous for them hold that, and the BEs and Forsaken should have taken the Plaguelands ages ago (if nothing else but for pure national defense).
However … I also do not like the Wildhammer capital of Aerie Peak. If Magni is right, they have a home to return to now and rebuild; and the Hinterlands were the one, final haven the Forest Trolls had left. I do think the Wildhammer should reunite their peoples, resettle the Highlands and Wetlands, and rebuild Grim Batol … and let the poor Forest Trolls have one damned strip of land to live.
As for Kali … Stonetalon, Thousand Needles, and Tanaris are my big Horde gains, but Dustwallow and Feralas are up for debate. I just don’t think Shandris of all people is doing her people any good protecting some cursed Highborne ruins and a 10 year old garrison with no enemies to fight down there. Her building Feathermoon Stronghold in Eastern Ashenvale would make that region nearly impossible to invade again. On the other hand, I want the Horde completely out of Ashenvale, Darkshore, Felwood, Winterspring, Hyjal, and even Moonglade (if the NEs so desire that last one). The Reds need to be gone.
We’re really not that far apart then. I do think the Forsaken need Hillsbrad, but I also think that the Wildhammer probably should hold Aerie Peak - which doesn’t speak for the rest of the Hinterlands, certainly.
On Kalimdor, I think the only point of potential departure is that I think Feralas should probably remain contested, although I wouldn’t mind an increased Tauren presence in the zone.
My problem with the Wildhammer and Aerie Peak is more of a thematic one. I do not like what very clearly is an invasion and occupancy into what was up till a few hundred years ago (a generation in Dwarven years) was Forest Troll ancestral land. I like it even less that the Trolls attacking them for invading is portrayed as the Trolls being the aggressor, simply because the Dwarves moved in, built their settlement, and didn’t take the first swing (they just did something they knew the Trolls would attack them for and played the defense card). Its the same BS they pulled with the Stonespire Tauren in the Barrens.
As for Feralas. My issue is very controversial on it. Sure, I think the Tauren (now that they’ve decided to settle for the first time in their people’s history) need the land. But its beyond that. The NEs and Feathermoon Stronghold aren’t really defending anything down there. Not really. Even with the Shen’drelar cowed back into their ranks. That single garrison soaks away talent and resources away from where they are needed more to the North, especially Shandris herself. On top of this (especially if you are giving up Stonetalon), the only way to Feralas is overseas. Which again, is super resource intensive for a single garrison defending … nothing? So, just let the Tauren go at it. They’ll treat that forest right.
