An RPer's reflection on Darnassus - four years after logging out for the last time

Lore Story Forum
474

The night elves do use mounts, but not as closed cavalry, but as a faster means of transportation which can fight back. Besides, tigers would not be nearly as good as a horse for cavalry charge and front line breaking. The sheer force and violence of horses would be simply overwhelming compared to a saber charge.

They would be much more formidable in single combat. Imagine you have to defend yourself against a mount and a rider, and the mount slashes your legs off as well.

The navy would be an additional case: sure, there are night elf ships, but they are by no means Kul’Tiras or Zandalari-level. The night elves are more of a “land power” than a sea power. Besides, they never needed such ship powers, they have plenty of druids.

Then technology is one of their weaknesses. They are by no means a people who place much value on goblin/gnome/Draenei technology, they bet their money on magic and craftmensship aswell as soldiers.

May I ask: What would it look like for you in terms of these three things?

475

Let me clarify. The Faction Conflict people want is a Faction Conflict with none of those things. What they want is to be able to put their team jerseys on in between the “real” story, and for the board to be reset by the end. Its the type of story that constantly reminds me that population numbers never matter, and enforces status quo writing. The latter of which is far, FAR less beneficial for the Faction and Racial stories of the Horde than the Alliance.

476

And I ask you, what would the consequence look like, how would you have rewritten BFA …to get just those things of a true story instead of just a status quo and a handshake at the end?

477

The story hasn’t always been utter crap. It was at its best in Vanilla - Wrath, always in the background, something that you could participate in, but didn’t have to, and something that had some tie-in content that showed that the factions were in a simmering war.

Could it have been better? Yes. There could have been more background - but when you talk about stakes, change, and consequences, I’m going to come right out and say it: those things generally are not good for competitive multiplayer experiences because of their potential to kill motivation to play - and so you have to be extremely careful with the narrative content that you introduce.

This is an extremely difficult problem for any multiplayer game. How do you incorporate story elements that do not distract or detract from play? How do you set the field so that it’s fair every time you step onto it?

Well, one of the ways is realizing that people do not experience story content entirely from purposely crafted narratives. The stories that matter are the personal ones, about the characters that are in the experience, and this is where we bring in that in an interactive medium, the player is a writer too. They craft, through their actions, their triumphs and failures, a personal narrative that chronicles their advancement, and the franchise writer gives context to that through environment, through characters, through background setting, etc.

What Blizzard did instead was take a concept that should have remained for something to be expressed in competitive play, and shoved it into the PVE experience. That is the simplest and most explanatory reason for why this sucks. You can’t shove a three act structure into a rivalry with players on either side, and sides that are comprised of communities with different objectives. Further, the big lore characters do not matter. The characters that we create matter.

Principally, I believe in writing a faction conflict that supports the objectives of the game mode - and again, that requires balance. That balance, to summarize, conflicts with the common uber-narrative desires of franchise writers, leaving “story” as something that should be expressed emergently.

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478

I mean, I don’t like the Faction Conflict at all. Its never a positive experience for the Horde, who always has to be the villains. Pushed by a writing team who has a tendency of never even wanting to give justifications or motives for why the Horde needs to be antagonistic towards the Alliance; let alone validating those justifications. We’re just “Goblins, its what we do” like Silithus. Its disgusting.

But, I’ve made my opinions very well known about the easiest way to make the story of BfA work more cohesively. It wont create a more enjoyable experience, but the story would make more sense at least. Actually validate the several major acts of Alliance aggression leading up the WoT; thus validating the Horde in the WoT. The Alliance was effectively already at war with the Horde before Saurfang made his plan, their actions were just never allowed to count. Then, have Sylvie use Saurfang’s WoT to cause her burning of Teld; and from then turn the Horde side of the story into an entrapment narrative. Doing so means you can keep most of the major story beats, and a lot of the tactics on both sides make more sense.

The Horde is allowed to comment on Teld. Hate Teld. Hate being made tools to cause an event like Teld. But are too afraid to weaken themselves enough to the Alliance to oust Sylvanas. Thus, what the story breaks down to is a battle between Sylvie trying to keep the conflict escalated and prolongued (to sell the idea that the Alliance is committed to a war of extermination against the Horde for Teld, thus keeping her control over them as long as she needs) … while Anduin attempts to prove that narrative wrong. To give breathing space for the Horde to turn on her themselves. With actors on both sides frustrating both leaders efforts, and it tying more naturally into the current SLs back and forth between the two we see now.

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479

I’ll partially answer your question as well - by reference to this proposal:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/writing-a-pvp-narrative-post-shadowlands/801368

The thing that I want to note is - there are no major changes. The content is built up around, and supports battlegrounds - which I think should be the gameplay equivalent for these narratives as dungeons and raids are. Those are where you should find your power fantasies, if you’re good enough to get them.

480

i have no interesst in reading this post over and over again, sorry. I read him twice, thats more often that anything else here. I know your position^^

481

Fair enough! Just making sure that I present the counterpoint.

482

Honestly, that wouldn’t really change the problems. In fact, it would make one side eat up even more internally, and ultimately even move against each other, and not the characters ingame I mean, but the players. it would fix a problem for the Horde, yeah, point taken, but the overall problem would still endure.

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483

You mean when it had no story?

Not really. When it was a most a C Plot perpetual cold war (that always HAS to exist for the PvPers to pretend they care about the story) … that made increasingly less sense to exist? Yeah, no. That’s exactly what I said it was. Its people conflating their positive and memorable experiences with a game mechanic with actual good storytelling for the Faction Conflict. Its the dopamine called Head-Cannon.

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484

Having no strong cohesive narrative is not the same thing as having no story. You’re discounting the various elements other THAN narrative that are part of story. Environmental design tells a story. Game mechanics help to tell a story. A random NPC who sells you bread and occasionally has comments helps to tell a story. Your personal journey concerning who your character is and what decisions you made to get them there? That’s a story.

The ubernarrative is not a necessary component to an MMO. I would in contrast argue that it’s the thing that’s killing this one.

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485

The only way to concievably fix BfA, is to not have BfA, if that’s your metric. The only way to possibly have a good Faction Conflict story was to have never killed off Vol’jin. The moment Blizz placed Sylvanas “New World Order” Windrunner into the drivers seat of the Horde … was the moment any chance of an even slightly nuanced Faction Conflict story could be written. And that factor tripled when you placed Anduin in charge of the Alliance. The Golden Child of Golden who’s the flawless moral compass.

You can NOT even hope to have even a slightly well written Faction Conflict story if one of the Factions maintains Moral Absolutism. You can NOT even hope to have an even slightly well written Faction Conflict story, when the Aggressor of the conflict isn’t allowed to have valid reasons for being aggressive (because to do so would tarnish the Moral Absolutism of the other Faction). Above all, you can NOT have an even slightly well written faction conflict when the always kept weaker of the two factions always is forced to punch outside of its weight class. Because “MORAL ABSOLUTISM!!!”

So … my solution merely allows the Horde players a chance a window to becoming heroes again. Rather than what we’re left with now, where the best we can hope for is being the optional side-kicks to the Super Friends Alliance. Which Blizz does seem committed to. Both Baine and Calia are indicative of their drive to merely make the Horde convenient for the Alliance’s story from now on. They got exactly what they wanted out of BfA. The perfect excuse to maintain the Horde as sidekicks in our own story perpetually.

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486

Droite - Zahir’s point is that your solution only fixes the Horde’s issues - and I agree with him. It certainly leaves me and my concerns out in the cold because I’m still being victimized to kick off the whole thing.

That’s the problem with these massive uprooting events. The problem doesn’t end with Horde motivation. I’m completely demotivated to play for the reasons I expressed, and I don’t feel that your proposal even tries to resolve those matters.

487

Like I said, the only way to fix BfA is to not have BfA.

And frankly, I’m locked into Faction who’s riddled with people now who’s ONLY virtue we can have is how submissive and Alliance convenient we are; and can never be portrayed as heroes again. My character roster is a husk, with no chance at being rebuilt (in a game that demands you have strong hero characters if your PC race wants any relevance). Several of my PC Racial Narratives are left deader than the Forsaken. My Faction Identity is in ruins, and likely can never be repaired… I haven’t been allowed Faction Pride in over a decade. The only good thing I got out of BfA (the ARs) actively regretted joining the Faction, and I don’t blame them. And Blizz has deliberately and repeatedly been shaming my Faction and its players for what they themselves forced us to do. Which is fine, as it matches the regular undertones of a small but pervasive amount of Alliance fans telling me I’m a bad person IRL for playing Horde for the last 2 1/2 years.

So … outside of not having a BfA, the only thing I can think to fix BfA is to at least to allow the Horde to have motives for what it does beyond “Lol, they’re Goblins, its what they do!” … and have the courtesy of giving us some out. Some avenue to letting us at least pretend to be heroes again. Which Blizz did not allow. You wanna fix the NE’s part of BfA? Fine, just give them what their players clearly want (but don’t like to admit). The NEs being portrayed as more powerful than the entire Horde combined; and thus reasserting the idea that the Horde is never allowed any semblance of Power Fantasy if it ever infringes upon the NE’s.

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488

Yeah, but like Kyalin and Zair pointed out, it doesn’t the fix the very real problems alliance and its players are suffering from too. There’s two major fan bases alliance side(Worgen and Kaldorei) that are used as punching bags for any sort of Faction Conflict and most of the time it’s just Humans and their side kicks. It took all the way until Legion for Velen to finally get some character growth and actual screen time for example.

Trust us when we say, alliance side isn’t as good as people like to claim it is. We’re forced to be incompetent for trusting the horde when they commit yet another atrocity and are never ever allowed to have a true victory over the horde.

489

You want to know what would really be a solution?The conflict would be gladly started in Lordaeron. Turalyon and Calia are fighting to reclaim their homeland. It goes all the way to Undercity, caught cold by this attack, but the Forsaken still manage to hold on until the arrival of the alliance army loyal to their alliance partner. In the end, Sylvanas destroys Undercity to spite Calia and Turalyon into the face. In Kalimdor finally the counterattack. The night elves and worgen and draenei manage to hold on to the border between Darkshore and Ashenvale. There a frontline is formed, the first warfront.

There is a back and forth, without a clear winner and the death toll rises. Meanwhile, Sylvanas knows she has Teldrassil to destroy, so she secretly joins forces with Azshara and leads a small troop of her Darkrangers. She was able to sneak past the front line. Together with Azshara, she eventually destroys Teldrassil and the genocide happens. Shocked by the sight, the defenders’ morale collapses and they are forced into retreat. Darkshore is occupied and the defenders retreat back into the wilderness. There, seized by blind rage, Tyrande becomes a Night Warrior. Inspires the hearts of worgen, night elves, and draenei alike. The counterattack begins, the warfront begins anew, but this time more terrible than ever. With insane speed, the horde is beaten back further and further.

Saurfang, shocked by the events, senses that something is wrong, even Sylvanas explanation doesn’t quite make sense to him (Azerith blown up, unstable!), but he only finds out the truth in Nazjatar (He had been sent there first to die, secondly it was all the great plan of Sylvanas and Azshara. ). This ignites the rebellion, the Horde sees that it is only a tool, a tool for mass murder, it is not about peace! The Horde does not want to be that. Anduin - who until then coordinated the war in Kul’Tiras and the eastern Kingdoms - is finally consulted and confronted with the truth. All this serves only one purpose: the factions should destroy each other, but the war is too hot, the hatred too great. in the first second, he don´t even believe it.

But there is still a problem. The former defenders, led by the Night Warrior, beat the Horde back to Azshara. But none other than Sylvanas comes to the aid of the Horde. No matter how terrible and terrifying she has done, she cares about the Horde, in her own way. So she fights against Tyrande. IN an epic first battle of hunger for more powerwoman fight, it comes to a draw. Weakened, both must retreat. Finally, on the other sides of Orgrimmar, the resistance slowly fights its way to Orgrimmar. Saurfang challenges Sylvanas to the Mak’gora to atone for her actions, he dies in the attempt, but proves her true colors, that she was only using the Horde, a tool of murder!

She finally disappears with the words, “The horde is nothing!”

490

Eh, it was by the intervention of Velen in TBC that the Sunwell was restored, wasn’t it? Yeah, didn’t have much after that I think.

:pancakes:

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491

Showing up briefly at the end of a raid patch hardly counts as character development and you know that

492

So your solution is … to simply have the Alliance attack the Horde first, giving military authority to two characters with no military authority to do so. Then the Horde is forced to commit atrocities under Sylvanas anyway, ensuring that like always any moral ambiguity is thrown entirely out the window through the flash and spectacle of a Horde atrocity. And more Horde infighting, eventually leading us to side with the Alliance to clean up our own mess. But still shackling us with another genocide.

Then of course “the Horde is Nothing”. Which is something that wouldn’t hurt so much, if Blizzard constantly didn’t prove it true. I have no doubt in my mind that they will put more work into “redeeming” Sylvanas than proving the Horde is worth anything more than an optional side-kick in the Alliance’s story. And that reality would not change in your version. I truly see no out for the Horde, even in this version.

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493

Turalyon has authority, over an entire race, he is a council member and many Lordaeronians in Stormwind would rather see the Forsaken gone sooner than later.

It is not the Horde that causes Teldrassil, the Horde even reveals the truth. It was Sylvanas and Azshara who were secretly conspiring.

even the horde did it not, thats even my point. The horde was only framed for it, but in the end, it was only sylvanas and her loyalists.And that is found out by both factions.

And instead of starting a sad story about suicide, it shows that it was ultimately the HORDE that got to the root of the truth.