That’s not what I quoted, though, and you can be facetious while still making a serious point.
If I said “Only X classes are allowed into raids. Everyone else gets sent to the labor camps.” every reasonable person would know I’m not serious about sending the others to labor camps, but they’d also know I’m making a serious point that certain classes are the only ones allowed.
Or depending on the context, I was making fun of someone’s supposed argument, as you were doing.
Good grief. You are taking a silly post that was a reference to a dumb Xmas movie far too seriously. Look, if you want to believe that my post was using bad humor to obfuscate an argument that’s your prerogative, but I assure you my intent was only to make a bad joke.
That and to convey that those who raid with druids are kinky and should totally PM me.
Alright, my mistake, then.
I think it’s more a reflection of the higher skilled tanks can generate enough threat quickly enough that a 3k windfury burst on the pull is less likely to happen.
It’s not about the shaman doing good damage. To totem twist effectively without chain chugging mana consumes they ahve to give up
-stormstrike
-earthshock
-a decent damage build.
A enhancement shaman actually boosts the group dps by atleast 50dps per person (200) at a minimum which would bring their damage inline with middle to upper middle of the pack.
I am hesitant to believe an Enhancement Shaman is boosting the DPS of everyone in the party by 50.
Would you like to explain the math behind that one?
Also, assuming that amount of DPS actually is being granted per person, that’s not specific to Enhancement. Shaman brings just as much DPS while being the best healer for the Horde.
Windfury is a huge boost to sword spec rogues and fury warriors. It increases the amount of sword spec procs substantially and increases both flurry uptime and rage generation drastically.
Couple this with GoA with a minimum of 1.5 second downtime out of every 10 seconds and SoE totem on top of that with an extra bonus due to talents and it all adds up rapidly. My group is seeing about a 10-15% dps increase in raid from having my hefty butt in their group provided I don’t get a triple crit on my first white swing.
A resto shaman can bring the exact same benefits at the cost of
Their own throughput.
Their own longevity which granted isn’t a problem this tier.
And the potential risk of losing a player due to having to use 2 GCD’s every 10 seconds.
Totem twisting is pretty mana intensive (376 mana every 10 seconds)
Sorry, I meant would you mind showing the math.
I’m aware of what the spells do, but I’ve not bothered to personally look at how they would, if maintained perfectly, affect a Fury Warrior’s DPS in pre-raid BiS, for example.
True, but that’s just the same as it is with Enhancement, and part of a Resto Shaman’s duties is to provide the totems to boost their group’s performance, anyway.
Despite that, they still remain the best healers. Of course, without totem twisting, they’re providing no GoA, which is 77 Agi, or 89 (90?) with talents.
Granted, that’s no insignificant amount, but you have to wonder if it’s worth bringing an Enhancement Shaman for it instead of just another DPS.
So the DPS for being Enhancement is not actually 50 for each person, because that’s very close to what Shaman proves to begin with. The real DPS Enhancement specifically brings is the difference between totem twisting and not totem twisting.
The difference between GoA and no GoA is 77 AP (or 89 not sure if tool tips update dynamically) and between 3.5 - 4.5% crit.And all the inherent benefits that that brings.I have unbuffed around 580 AP and 20% crit so for me running GoA is a 15% increase on AP and an increased crit rate of 16% with all the benefits that entails.I have no clue what a warrior or rogue is running as an average.
Completely fair call there.That sort of min-maxing is needed for the APE’s and Methods of the world.
For guilds like mine who have only just cleared the tier it’s more about getting bums in seats and making sure those bums are useful than a top performing comp. We couldn’t get 8 resto shamans without pushing 3-4 of our priests out so it was easier to just take 2 enhance shamans.
Generally speaking, I don’t think 77 AP (only for Rogues, by the way, not for Fury Warriors) and just short of 4% crit is worth the DPS loss of bringing an Enhancement over another DPS.
The sort of min-maxing needed would lead them to play Alliance over Horde, anyway. That said, APES went all Gnomes for PvP min-maxing over PvE min-maxing, so who knows? /shrug
Fair, which is why I said you couldn’t really justify bringing one over anything else. That doesn’t mean you can’t really justify bringing one at all.
For sure! We actually take 2 to cover our top 2 meelee groups and aside from messy rag attempts where both of us were face down horribly early into the pulls it seems to work. If i’d known our logger was taking the night I would have logged our thursday night raid.
Technically we’re competing for server first with one alliance guild but thanks to them raiding weds and us raiding thursday they have the actual title.
RIP ego.
Yep in all fairness the earlier raids have room for warm bodies that can be filled by any class with no talent points.
Retribution aura has no spellpower coefficient, so JotC does not do anything for it.
If you would like a list of spellpower coefficients, you can find them here:
Long and short of it is that if JotC gives, for example, “up to 140”, you can basically read this as like if you had armor with +140 spell power to holy spells.
Feral cat single target is not half the damage of rogue/war. take golemagg fight and you will see the highest rogue at 780 and highest druid at 615.
Now consider that the druid at 615 lost all his world buff/burning steppes buff on lucifron cause he got mind controled and cleaved by warriors xD. The problem is theres way less good druid parsing then good rogue parsing. Also less total parse for crazy rng luck.
Warrior parses is something else cause they cant pop recklessness on each fight.
Now if you add the 3% crit buff as 3% more damage on 4 teamate with 780 dmg to the druid damage, the druid would be at 710 damage, again without world buff. And they bring the usual druid stuff.
Highest Warrior parse on Golemagg is 1,029.
Highest Rogue parse on Golemagg is 955.
60% of the Warrior.
64% of the Rogue.
So Feral Druid is doing a little more than half… on Golemagg. Now look at all the bosses.
Lucifron:
Warrior - 1,578 DPS
Rogue - 1,466
Cat - 513
33% of the Warriors.
34% of the Rogues.
Magmadar:
Warrior - 1,123
Rogue - 826
Cat - 579
51% of the Warrior.
70% of the Rogue.
Gehennas:
Rogue - 1,930
Warrior - 1,580
Druid - 530
27% of the Rogue.
33% of the Warrior.
Garr:
Warrior - 1,419
Rogue - 1,010
Druid - 611
43% of the Warrior.
60% of the Rogue.
Shazzrah:
Warrior - 1,467
Rogue - 1,192
Druid - 644
44% of the Warrior.
54% of the Rogue.
Baron Geddon:
Warrior - 708
Rogue - 646
Druid - 406
57% of the Warrior.
62% of the Rogue.
Sulfuron Harbinger:
Warrior - 1,143
Rogue - 923
Druid - 473
41% of the Warrior.
51% of the Rogue.
Majordomo Executus:
Warrior - 944
Rogue - 750
Druid - 466
49% of the Warrior.
62% of the Rogue.
Ragnaros:
Warrior - 654
Rogue - 597
Druid - 439
67% of the Warrior
74% of the Rogue.
Onyxia:
Rogue - 511
Warrior - 509
Druid - 313
61% of the Rogue.
61% of the Warrior.
Average that. 53% of the DPS of a Warrior or Rogue on average. Keeping in mind, that’s only the BEST parses, and the average of all three classes receives far lower than that, I think what I said is fairly accurate:
You can also look at the medians, or upper quartiles to compare the “above average” players of each class.
Median:
Rogue - 297
Warrior - 290
Druid - 182
61% of Rogues.
63% of the Warriors.
Upper Quartile:
Warrior - 412
Rogue - 393
Druid - 261
63% of Warriors.
66% of Rogues.
So, if we take the average player of each spec, even accounting for having some modicum of skill, Druids are about 3/5ths the DPS of a Warrior or Rogue.
I can update my post to say “slightly better than half” if you want. The point is still the same, though. Feral Druids are significantly behind.
If you think 40% less DPS is acceptable, by all means, but my suggestion not to bring a Feral over a Fury Warrior or Rogue still stands.
Sure, and I’ve said throughout this thread that we’re just not seeing many of them, and the ones we’re seeing aren’t doing as well.
Even with tens of thousands of parses more, the average DPS would probably look worse, not better, because the average player probably isn’t that good at Feral or as dedicated to doing decent DPS with it.
The people parsing as Feral currently are probably the people most passionate about it. Over time, those people will push their parses even higher, but so will every class.
The question is how much.
The same Warriors consistently parse among the highest. It’s not like they got the highest because they used Recklessness on that one fight.
Take, for example, Ahlaundoh.
#2 on Lucifron
#7 on Magmadar
#3 on Gehennas
#1 on Garr
#1 on Shazzrah
#1 on Sulfuron Harbinger
#6 on Golemagg
#3 on Majordomo
#5 on Ragnaros
#3 on Onyxia
You think he waited 30 minutes between each boss to get those parses? No. Can he skew a few fights really high in his favor? Sure. But that’s part of the Warrior toolkit, and just one more reason they’re better than Feral.
I like that you bring up Recklessness, then immediately talk about Leader of the Pack. Warriors wouldn’t be getting the full value of that 3% crit, in that case.
Anyway, you’re sort of missing the point of this statement:
Let’s go through the list. Keeping in mind that for Warriors, the crit is actually more than just 3% DPS because of Flurry and Rage generation. We’ll bump it to 4% to be generous.
Lucifron:
Warrior - 530 DPS on average
Druid - 262 DPS on average
530 * 0.04 = 21.
55 * 4 = 84.
84 + 262 = 346
346 / 530 = 65%
Still not worth the DPS loss.
Magmadar:
503
298
503 * 0.04 = 20 * 4 = 80
80 + 298 = 378 / 75%
Still not worth the DPS loss.
I think you get the point.
Resto Druids bring the usual Druid stuff, too. That’s not really a valid argument in favor of Feral Cat, specifically.
Besides, to provide their “usual Druid stuff,” they’re going to have to drop Cat Form, which negates the benefit of bringing them for their crit buff.
Rebirth has a 30m cooldown, so it isn’t something you can rely on.
Innervate isn’t as useful because the fights are so short healers aren’t running out of mana.
Mark of the Wild would be provided by a Resto Druid (and would be improved, whereas the Cat version would not because they need Furor).
Thorns would be provided by a Resto Druid (and could be improved depending on their spec).
Sorry, friend, but Feral just isn’t worth bringing in according to the data.
Keyword you seem to have missed is single target. gonna read that wall of text later.
not arguing that druid compare on cleave fight
single target on golemagg since its a good metric for single target damage . rogue 780 , druid 615. without world buff and without counting the lotp buff. and theres 40x more rogue parsing if all those druid are even dps main
Nope. I showed all bosses, including single target.
Also, why would you only consider the single target fights? Why do you have to ignore significant parts of the toolkits of Warriors and Rogues just to try and make the spec look slightly better?
Even on single target, they’re, what? 65% of the DPS? Hahaha. Cool.
Awesome. You don’t even bother reading the reply before you replied in turn.
Already addressed all of these arguments. You’d know that if you actually read the post.
read the first sentence of my first post. my premise was single target. you proceeded to show me damage on cleave fight. just look at golemagg, damage to bosses you will see what im talking about. youre arguing with yourself at this point
On all fights, including single target. Maybe if you actually read the replies, you’d know that.
which is irrelevant since im talking single target only, i never said anything else youre putting words in my mouth. golemagg is a single target fight the padding on the adds doenst matter. if youd sort by damage to bosses you would see my value are correct
I’ll just keep quoting this until you address it.
It’s incredibly stupid to look at a raid where half of the fights aren’t single target and then disregard anything other than single target.
Even on single target, as I’ve explained numerous times now, Cat is maybe 2/3 the DPS. That’s still really bad.
I don’t think that means what you think it means. I never claimed you said anything else, bud. I’m not putting words in your mouth.
Ah, fair point. Hadn’t considered they were just tanking the adds on top of the boss.
Alright, let’s adjust.
Warrior - 973
Rogue - 780
Druid - 615
63% of the Warrior.
79% of the Rogue.
Accounting for Leader of the Pack…
Rogue:
780 * 0.03 = 23 * 4 = 92
615 + 92 = 707 / 780 = 91%
Mathematically not worth bringing over a Rogue.
Warrior:
973 * 0.04 = 39 * 4 = 156
156 + 615 = 771 / 973 = 79%
Mathematically not worth bringing of a Warrior.
So even on a pure single target fight, Feral still isn’t worth bringing over a Warrior or a Rogue.
So…
All still valid.