I find myself using that or very similar healing setups in M+
I’m sorry but Rising Mist just is not as efficient as you would like to claim. Modelling the problem is not trivial, I may have to write some python code to do it, but just from trying to model the problem, I can already tell that Rising Mist is inefficient from the sheer number of Rising Sun Kicks you have to use in order to reach and maintain 5 Renewing Mists on the party. On top of that, from what I can tell so far in my calculations, the minimum number of RSK’s to maintain 5 renewing mists is less than what you would typically achieve from resets on blackout kick in a real scenario. Even though these extra RSK’s do healing if you have AToTM active, there is inherent risk that the heal will overheal a non priority target, or not be needed at all depending on the damage output of the party. Therefore, it might just be bad to use RSK sometimes.
My hypothesis now after doing my napkin math is that there is a turning point on the graph of “Healing Per Mana Time of RSK’s per Renewing Mist Casts” where any additional RSK’s in between each Renewing Mist is a net loss. This becomes even more apparent for enveloping mist, since you cannot extend the duration past 6 seconds. If you use 2 RSK’s per Enveloping Mist, you are technically losing 2 seconds of extension for the mana cost of the RSK than had you only extended it by 1 RSK and then casted another Enveloping Mist before your next RSK.
RSK still costs mana to proc the HoT extension, and there is a certain point where it likely becomes more mana efficient to cast two free vivify’s on 3 renewing mist targets than 1 non-free vivify on 5 renewing mist targets, due to the maintenance mana cost of keeping 5 renewing mists active.
I’ll get back to yall on it.
I think the fundamental disconnect here is that, in my opinion, if I run RM with ToM I am still fistweaving.
In terms of my low experience (been pretty lazy for the expansion start), AtoTM is more problematic to run simply off how much less useful EF is in the context. For M+ I generally operate under the expectation of hard casting once damage gets going while dps and thus eminence is something to slow down when that happens rather then a focus.
Idk if you are trolling or being serious, but as someone who does high keys as a MW and who did them with focused thunder AND rising mist, it isn’t “inefficient”. Not only in terms of dmg but healing it is much better, not to mention more mana efficient because you can extend ENVM by 7 seconds which essentially means you save a lot of mana
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Fair point, ty
But youre not really saving a superior amount of mana by extending Enveloping Mist by 7 seconds – thats exactly the point im trying to make – like it costs 3000 mana to cast EM once, and it costs 1500 mana to extend it by 7 seconds, which is 50% of the mana cost of casting it once. Its only a buy one get one half off, a crappy deal, not even a BOGO — and that’s not considering if you are using Focused Thunder to empower enveloping mist. You have to account for the trade off of HoT extension vs spending the mana for an empowered Enveloping Mist which also cleaves due to Tear of Morning.
In essence, you are losing 1 second each time you do 2 RSK’s to extend an Enveloping Mist (if you are using mistwrap), or 2 seconds if you are using Chi Wave. So you have to account for the accumulated loss of 1 second each time (you are spending the 750 mana for the RSK but you are not gaining 1 second of HoT extension for the cast). If the RSK and its’ Rising Mist do overhealing, then there is a triple waste.
But an empowered ENVM isn’t even that great, Also you aren’t taking into account the fact that you also are extending EF AND RNM, it’s not just ENVM but also EF and rnm and all the free healing rising mist just does when you are using RSK, there’s a reason every topMW runs this talent, there’s just so much more play to be made with it.
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See now you are just backtracking. I stated early on in the thread that earlier the HoT portion of renewing is a fairly small portion of the total healing in a typical healing profile — nobody challenged me on that. I think if they buff MW we should definitely see a mana cost reduction and HoT buff.
As you and other have already said, the main point of Rising Mist is to have 5 renewing mists active for an extended period of time and for when you need to use vivify.
But for as many times people in this thread claim that Rising Mist somehow is super mana efficient
Hey look you even contradicted yourself in that last one, claiming that an Empowered Enveloping mist is not good but then saying that EM should be a top source of healing. Hmmm.
ETC.
It costs 750 mana per RSK which is NOT negligible.
Look at how much mana it takes just to double the duration of one Renewing Mist.
Renewing Mist costs 1100 mana to cast once and lasts 20 seconds. To extend its duration by another 20 seconds would require 5 RSK’s at 4 second extensions each for a total of 3750 mana… almost FOUR times the initial cost. Give me a break. You can roughly cast a renewing mist and 1.5 vivifys or roughly 1 renewing mist and 1 enveloping mist with that mana.
Y’all are yelling at me about “oh the extra mana you would be spending on vivify” like look at how much mana you are using just to maintain 5 RM that do such an inferior amount of healing over time anyways.
That’s increasing one 20 seconds, a second 16 seconds, a third 12 seconds, a fourth 8 seconds, and a fifth 4 seconds (without banking and getting a longer period at 5), or an investment of 3750 on a cost of 5500 mana. The costs overlap a lot in RM, it doesn’t simply cost 3750 for each ReM.
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You can try to puff it up by saying it that way to seem like you are getting more than you really are, but you’re not. To keep 5 renewing mists indefinitely assumes that you are making an infinite chain of renewing mist extensions.
Mathematically speaking, outside of the first four renewing mists (which are unique because you have two charges banked and your HoT extensions apply to fewer than four mists), all of the rest of the renewing mists during an encounter are identical in their mathematical behavior.
A perfect “cycle” is roughly 36 seconds, so for each cycle you will spend 4*1100 (4 renewing mists) + 3750 mana (from extensions) for a new renewing mist added to the cycle and the subsequent extensions needed to get to the next cycle.
I’ll put an asterisk there to say that I’m still working out the specific details of how this works. But you can clearly see outright that spending 3750 mana for 20 second extension of a crappy HoT can possibly be inefficient.
A ‘perfect cycle’ would require spending one RSK for each additional ReM after the first fifth, because each additional RSK hits the fifth extension for one of the active ReM (ie a 750 cost per added ReM).
It’s extremely unlikely in practice, but entirely possible to get a few extensions past five in correct timings within a given mob pull.
But then on top of that, the RSK’s while you have fewer than 4 Renewing Mists active are even less efficient than when you have 5 active stacks.
Whenever you have two charges and start the rotation from scratch there is a roughly 13 second window of error. Any time you spend more than 13 seconds without casting Renewing Mist or RSK means that it is no longer possible to build up to 5 Renewing Mists unless you wait until you have two charges banked up.
The two main sources of error are delay and pandemic refresh of renewing mist. Each second you delay casting RM eats away at the 13 seconds. Worse is when renewing mist suddenly jumps to the target as you are queueing RM and it causes a pandemic refresh. That will eat a whole 9 seconds of your error window.
Unless you are in a perfect key (which for the vast majority of people does not happen), there are many 13 second intervals (or shorter if you are bad at putting RM on the right targets), forcing you to have to bank up two charges of RM and restart the rotation.
Again you reach a point where the accumulated losses from the inefficiencies of ramping up to 5 RM make you question if that’s really the best way to play.
I wanted to tell the original poster. Thank you for writing this. I was very confused but now I feel more confident.
I’m getting from the community that fistweaving is for the people that play smart and the caster type is for the lazy people. It’s kind of a weird erosion of the mistweaver playstyle.
Anyways, I appreciate the post Psychi.
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An EMPOWERED ENVM is useless, you shouldn’t use TFT on it unless the situation is dire, ENVM the HOT is gonna be your top heal or close to it, but whatever you seem to think you are right and every MW much higher then you in io is wrong. So enjoy your build.
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About time you joined the Panda Club.
This isn’t true. In the words of the great words of professor Oak “there is a time and place for everything”
If the tank starts to drop and you can tell that is going to continue you can tft env doing two things, a quick burst of healing while also setting up for future blasting
Also ban pandas
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I did say if the situation is dire you can use it then, but majority of the time using TFT on ENVM unless the tank is sub 20% isn’t as impactful, at least in my expierience.
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Also I’m actually enjoying panda in the castle nathria set, very official looking
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If you have an extra charge from Focused Thunder then its more reasonable to use it on the empowered enveloping mist. It hits really hard lol. Plus it feeds into the Renewing Mist targets if you have Tear of Morning active.
yulo
Pro Tip: Its not an extra charge - its a second use - two different things.
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