Alterac Valley - what would you like?

[Fesz-cenarius]

Where did I ever say that I wanted 1.5 AV to be a zerg?

I want an earlier version of AV sepcifically because I do not want AV to be a zerg.

I said that in the case that 1.5 AV ends up being a zerg in Classic (due to 1.12 Classes, items or any other number of other reasons), you’d rather that happen that make changes to stop it that would violate your “no changes” philosophy.

That’s the difference between us. We can agree on why we want something, and I’d rather we get there while you’d only want to get there as long as your echo chamber cult philosophy isn’t violated.

If the “changes” you would make to 1.5 AV never occurred during vanilla, then you would be correct in your belief that I would oppose those non vanilla changes because they were never part of vanilla.

If the changes you would make to 1.5 AV occurred during vanilla, but in a later patch, then I would welcome discussion on those changes because they were part of vanilla.

You can call it an echo chamber if it makes you feel better.

I call it trying to ensure that pandora’s box is not even cracked or that Blizzard and the pro changers do not even get a toe in the door which they can try to use as precedent for further non vanilla changes.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

If those who desire a truer Classic experience wanted the 1.12 version of AV, you would likely oppose the 1.12 version and insist that the earlier version be used.

Get everyone who used to be #nochange until blizzard announced that they were using 1.12 to agree to 1.12 AV and then we’ll talk

You know very well that the “no change” position has always been no changes from beyond vanilla (with the exceptions of BNET integration, color blind access and bug and legitimate exploit fixes) and that a “frankenpatch” has always been acceptable to the “no change” faction.

That does not mesh with your agenda, though, so you continue your trolling by intentionally misrepresenting the “no change” stance in order to further your agenda.

Nope the #nochange crowd was always vanilla means vanilla. Then blizzard announced that they were using 1.12 and suddenly vanilla meant a frankenpatch which never was vanilla.

Sorry but 1.12 AV was vanilla so the legitimate #nochange crowd is getting what they wanted.

“Vanilla means vanilla” has always meant only elements that were part of vanilla (with the aforementioned exceptions), even if those elements were not present in vanilla at the same time. Continuing to misrepresent the “no change” position in order to try to further your agenda does not alter that fact.

Were 1.5 and 1.6 also not part of vanilla?

What part of vanilla saw dual spec? What part of vanilla saw guild banks? What part of vanilla saw paladins given a taunt?

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents was never vanilla.

1.5 AV and 1.12 talents were both part of vanilla, were they not?

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents were never a thing a vanilla, so no.

1.5 AV and 1.12 were both part of vanilla, even if you do not want to acknowledge that fact.

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents and a ton of other changes were never part of vanilla, even if you don’t want to acknowledge that fact.

If you want vanilla 1.5 fine stand by that.

I want what has always been the “no change” stance–only elements from vanilla (with the aforementioned exceptions) even if all those elements were never present in vanilla at the same time.

Continue to troll and misrepresent the “no change” position all you want to try to further your agenda, though. The forums are wise to you, your agenda and your tactics.

And yet blizzard has said they consider 1.12 the most complete version of vanilla. So pre 1.12 changes are just as invalid(or valid) as post 1.12 changes.

Only in your mind.

Blizzard may decide to use the 1.12 version of AV, despite the overwhelming support and desire for the earlier versions. They could just as easily decide to use one of those earlier version. Either one would be in keeping with vanilla.

We have yet to see which version they will use.

Except that later versions of AV proved much more popular during vanilla.

Among those players with a convenience oriented mindset, possibly.

There were many strong objections to the changes that were made in an attempt to cater to that convenience oriented mindset, though.

No it was that most players wanted AV to be an actual PvP BG not just a map where you summoned NPC’s.

[Fesz-cenarius]

Who gets to determine the “best version” of Classic? You? Me? Johnny?

Isn’t that what you’re trying to say? That we should have 1.5/1.6 AV because you and Johnny think it’s the best?

I, personally, would prefer an earlier version of AV. I think the earlier versions of AV were vastly superior to the 1.12 zerg version.

I am not alone in that preference or opinion.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

Who gets to determine the “best version” of Classic? You? Me? Johnny?

Isn’t that what you’re trying to say? That we should have 1.5/1.6 AV because you and Johnny think it’s the best?

I, personally, would prefer an earlier version of AV. I think the earlier versions of AV were vastly superior to the 1.12 zerg version.

I am not alone in that preference or opinion.

And yet during vanilla many people preferred the 1.12 version of AV.

[Fesz-cenarius]

If those who desire a truer Classic experience wanted the 1.12 version of AV, you would likely oppose the 1.12 version and insist that the earlier version be used.

Get everyone who used to be #nochange until blizzard announced that they were using 1.12 to agree to 1.12 AV and then we’ll talk

You know very well that the “no change” position has always been no changes from beyond vanilla (with the exceptions of BNET integration, color blind access and bug and legitimate exploit fixes) and that a “frankenpatch” has always been acceptable to the “no change” faction.

That does not mesh with your agenda, though, so you continue your trolling by intentionally misrepresenting the “no change” stance in order to further your agenda.

Nope the #nochange crowd was always vanilla means vanilla. Then blizzard announced that they were using 1.12 and suddenly vanilla meant a frankenpatch which never was vanilla.

Sorry but 1.12 AV was vanilla so the legitimate #nochange crowd is getting what they wanted.

“Vanilla means vanilla” has always meant only elements that were part of vanilla (with the aforementioned exceptions), even if those elements were not present in vanilla at the same time. Continuing to misrepresent the “no change” position in order to try to further your agenda does not alter that fact.

Were 1.5 and 1.6 also not part of vanilla?

What part of vanilla saw dual spec? What part of vanilla saw guild banks? What part of vanilla saw paladins given a taunt?

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents was never vanilla.

1.5 AV and 1.12 talents were both part of vanilla, were they not?

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents were never a thing a vanilla, so no.

1.5 AV and 1.12 were both part of vanilla, even if you do not want to acknowledge that fact.

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents and a ton of other changes were never part of vanilla, even if you don’t want to acknowledge that fact.

If you want vanilla 1.5 fine stand by that.

I want what has always been the “no change” stance–only elements from vanilla (with the aforementioned exceptions) even if all those elements were never present in vanilla at the same time.

Continue to troll and misrepresent the “no change” position all you want to try to further your agenda, though. The forums are wise to you, your agenda and your tactics.

And yet blizzard has said they consider 1.12 the most complete version of vanilla. So pre 1.12 changes are just as invalid(or valid) as post 1.12 changes.

Only in your mind.

Blizzard may decide to use the 1.12 version of AV, despite the overwhelming support and desire for the earlier versions. They could just as easily decide to use one of those earlier version. Either one would be in keeping with vanilla.

We have yet to see which version they will use.

Except that later versions of AV proved much more popular during vanilla.

Among those players with a convenience oriented mindset, possibly.

There were many strong objections to the changes that were made in an attempt to cater to that convenience oriented mindset, though.

No it was that most players wanted AV to be an actual PvP BG not just a map where you summoned NPC’s.

No, it was that those players that had that instant (figure of speech, not literally “instant”) gratification, convenience oriented mindset wanted their “reward” as quickly as possible.

If AV was so popular in its 1.12 post nerf version, why did so many players just stop queuing for AV once they got the reward they wanted?

Why are we seeing so many “Once I get what I want, I’m done with AV” posts in this very thread?

[Fesz-cenarius]

Who gets to determine the “best version” of Classic? You? Me? Johnny?

Isn’t that what you’re trying to say? That we should have 1.5/1.6 AV because you and Johnny think it’s the best?

I, personally, would prefer an earlier version of AV. I think the earlier versions of AV were vastly superior to the 1.12 zerg version.

I am not alone in that preference or opinion.

And yet during vanilla many people preferred the 1.12 version of AV.

Those with that instant (figure of speech, not literally “instant”) gratification, convenience oriented mindset, maybe.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

If AV was so popular in its 1.12 post nerf version, why did so many players just stop queuing for AV once they got the reward they wanted?

Why did so few players queue for it at all in 1.5?

[Galdor-maelstrom (Galdor)]

I call it trying to ensure that pandora’s box is not even cracked or that Blizzard and the pro changers do not even get a toe in the door which they can try to use as precedent for further non vanilla changes.

“Pandora’s box” is cracked wide open already, you may as well dump your useless philosophy and join the calm and collected few who would prefer to trust the people bringing us this game, rather than prescribe to a failed philosophy that exists solely because of distrust and paranoia.

I guess this is the part where you try to convince me that Loot trading phased through Pandora’s box and therefore it’s still closed.

[Fesz-cenarius]

If AV was so popular in its 1.12 post nerf version, why did so many players just stop queuing for AV once they got the reward they wanted?

Why did so few players queue for it at all in 1.5?

Maybe it seemed like fewer players queued for AV than for AB or WSG because AV lasted so much longer than AB or WSG.

On the servers on which I played, there was always at least one AV match going, and most of the time there were at least 2 AV matches going.

AB and WSG were the same. It was not like there were zero AV matches going and 10 WSG matches or 10 AB matches.

[Fesz-cenarius]

I call it trying to ensure that pandora’s box is not even cracked or that Blizzard and the pro changers do not even get a toe in the door which they can try to use as precedent for further non vanilla changes.

“Pandora’s box” is cracked wide open already, you may as well dump your useless philosophy and join the calm and collected few who would prefer to trust the people bringing us this game, rather than prescribe to a failed philosophy that exists solely because of distrust and paranoia.

I guess this is the part where you try to convince me that Loot trading phased through Pandora’s box and therefore it’s still closed.

Talk about “Pandora’s box” and getting a toe in the door to use as precedent for further non vanilla changes.

That was the first place you went. Made a beeline for it, in fact. Grab a non vanilla change and use it as precedent for your further desired non vanilla changes. Talk about proving my point.

“Loot trading will be in, so any non vanilla change is open”, right?

And you wonder why there are so many that are opposed to non vanilla changes simply because they were never part of vanilla.

[Galdor-maelstrom (Galdor)]

That was the first place you went. Made a beeline for it, in fact. Grab a non vanilla change and use it as precedent for your further desired non vanilla changes. Talk about proving my point.

lol.

I can’t even do this anymore, it’s become so ridiculous. You made the stupid analogy, I pointed out that by your own definition your analogy has already come to pass and you go off on a paranoia laced tirade about how I’m using it as a reason to further my desires.

[Fesz-cenarius]

That was the first place you went. Made a beeline for it, in fact. Grab a non vanilla change and use it as precedent for your further desired non vanilla changes. Talk about proving my point.

lol.

I can’t even do this anymore, it’s become so ridiculous. You made the stupid analogy, I pointed out that by your own definition your analogy has already come to pass and you go off on a paranoia laced tirade about how I’m using it as a reason to further my desires.

Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded to me as if you were advocating changes for AV that never occurred during vanilla.

If I misunderstood, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.

If I did not misunderstand, and you were advocating changes to AV that were never made during vanilla, then I hope you can understand that your " ‘Pandora’s box’ is wide open already" comment with that subsequent reference to loot trading seems as if you are using loot trading as a precedent for those non vanilla changes to AV that you are advocating.

With regards to loot trading and “Pandora’s box”, though, maybe you missed the numerous threads opposing loot trading being part of Classic. It’s not like loot trading was ever universally accepted.

[Yunzhu-mannoroth (Yunzhu)]

The endless quoting makes this thread a nightmare to read on mobile.

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

Nope the #nochange crowd was always vanilla means vanilla. Then blizzard announced that they were using 1.12 and suddenly vanilla meant a frankenpatch which never was vanilla.

Nope. Frankenpatch was discussed looooong before blizzard stated that 1.12 would be the foundation and that we should discuss what versions of vanilla elements we enjoyed.

legitimate #nochange crowd

Ah, “legitimate” as so judged by the classic forums favorite wall of no poster and non-stop troll, Zyrius.

1.5 AV with 1.12 talents was never vanilla.

AV, AB and WSG have existed through dozens of talent reworks. Sorry, but that is a pretty weak argument, even for someone of your weak argument stature.

It doesn’t matter what the “no change” position you just defined is, because it isn’t Blizzard’s position.

They are not mutually exclusive, and Blizzard’s position is anything but set in stone.

And yet blizzard has said they consider 1.12 the most complete version of vanilla.

Mister Misrepresentation strikes again!

The difference between you and I, is that I know that the reasons I have for wanting it may not be met by simply porting an old version of AV into patch 1.12 and expecting it to play as it did in patch 1.5/1.6.

AV, AB and WSG have existed through dozens of patches, xpacs and talent reworks.

Except that later versions of AV proved much more popular during vanilla.

Prove it. CRBG and a faster route to get the loot while avoiding PVP is what happened near the end of vanilla. It simply became more easily speed run to the loot and then tossed aside.

Popular does not mean better. McDonalds hamburgers are “popular”.

This stance is not synonymous with producing the best version of Classic, nor is it synonymous with producing the most authentic version.

There was never a “best” patch version of vanilla. Each element of it over it’s timeline had separate high points. Making it “authentic” does not equate to picking a single patch version and rolling with it.

Where did I ever say that I wanted 1.5 AV to be a zerg?

I suspect he is implying that 1.12 talents would make 1.5/1.6 AV a zerg… or something.

As to the bug fix from 1.7, even if they used the 1.5 or 1.6 version of AV, I would expect that bug to be fixed as part of the bug fixes Blizzard said would be part of Classic.

Same.

I said that in the case that 1.5 AV ends up being a zerg in Classic (due to 1.12 Classes, items or any other number of other reasons), you’d rather that happen that make changes to stop it that would violate your “no changes” philosophy.

Seriously, lets say 1.12 are used, full stop. Are you seriously implying that the early versions of AV could become a zerg? If 1.12 talents are used, what version of AV would have a lesser chance of becoming a zerg: 1.17 or 1.12 AV?

Why are we seeing so many “Once I get what I want, I’m done with AV” posts in this very thread?

I have no doubt that had MC been nerfed so that those who wanted the gear could get it more easily and more quickly, Zyrius would say it became more “popular” and therefore better.

Why did so few players queue for it at all in 1.5?

Gee I don’t know, perhaps it was due to less people being high eneough level by then? Crazy, I know. Another thing you seem to leave out of your “popularity” equation: AB and WSG could be queued for starting at L10. AV: L50.

6 10-level brackets compared to 1 (at the beginning when AV was 50-60). F-ing numbers, how do they work?

Your logic is like asking why more people were running Scarlet Monastery than Onyxia or Molten Core.

I guess this is the part where you try to convince me that Loot trading phased through Pandora’s box and therefore it’s still closed.

Nobody I witnessed was even remotely asking for that on the forum. It was something blizzard decided to slip in and immediately got negative feedback about. I would not be shocked if they walked that back or at least limited it to masterloot only.

The endless quoting makes this thread a nightmare to read on mobile.

Agreed. It is much easier to select the text you want to quote and click on the “quote” button that pops up.

[Skrull-frostmourne (Skrull)]

At blizzcon they mentioned 10 or 15 man UBRS ect, 15 man UBRS didn’t exist with 1.12 talents but they are considering it anyway because it might be a better version of classic.
It’s no different if they go with 1.5 AV with 1.12 talents because it will be a more complete version of classic.

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

Guess what, you already have access to the fastest AV possible. Hint: you can log on and play it right now.

Guess what I’m going to be playing both so I yeah i would prefer an AV similar to how it is in retail in classic, but I know I’m not getting that so I would prefer the version in 1.12 which is not in retail.

[Narya-kirin-tor (Narya)]

You have the version you want which you can play whenever you want, but you don’t want another version to exist? That…is amazingly petty.

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

The version of 1.12 doesn’t exist in retail? Where in my statement did I say I don’t want another version to exist?

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

Why play the 1.12 version when you can play the exact version you want anytime you want, and currently?

“I prefer my Neapolitan with jimmies on top that I can currently pig out on, so I want the vanilla flavor that those other people have been asking for over a decade for to be rocky road flavored vanilla”
- Posted on an account created in 2018

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

Because I too will also play Classic? Is it to hard for your to comprehend that people will play both games?

I don’t care what version of AV is given to us. The question that was asked, which one would you like, I stated I would prefer the one in 1.12. You prefer something else, cool, idc which one is given as I will play regardless, I’m not like some who will immediately back out because their some special player that wants the game cater to their wants.