Taking IBGY is harder bc the horde cave is nearby and makes alliance have to fight waves of them before they can even have it as theirs and then if the alliance push south then the horde can backcap it 20s later
Exactly this.
They donât understand that all the horde have to do is take shgy and then go back cap ibgy and they will automatically win an alliance will never hold ibgy because they are going to get waves and waves of horde resurrecting from their cave right next to it.
Meanwhile alliance resurrect 2 minutes away at spgy
The strategy should be to cut horde off at SHGY. If youâre having problems at IBGY because of tunnel spawns, that means your defense is killing them at SHGY and your team is split doing two different things when they should be coordinating.
But, cut horde off at SHGY. Donât let them pass. Donât worry about IBGY during this process. Horde will have to cap SFGY to push through your SHGY turtle.
Now youâre free to take IBGY, and can easily win the rush from this position.
This is how it was done all during season of mastery for pugs. Alliance wins every game if they play it this way. Itâs not a field design issue, just a lack of proper strategy.
No they donât.
Horde can just keep pounding 40 people into SHGY until they soft cap it, they will eventually soft cap it
Meanwhile you had to defend SHGY until they take it and now youâre spawning all the way at SPGYâŚ
Not sure how many times youâre going to miss the obviousâŚ
Not sure what youâre not understanding, Horde can let you soft cap any graveyard you want.
Go ahead and soft cap IBGY, SFGY, FWGY as soon as you attack something horde 40 man attack SHGY and you lost your only graveyard in that area and you are now spawning at SPGY.
Then horde can just back cap whatever you soft capped because they spawn at their cave 20 at a time.
Theres some truth here, however I think they still have the meta where that non elite questgiver in AV can be slowly brought down to 10% and then she runs right to Van pulls him with none of the war masters and its just a simple 30 second burn after that.
Your saying make them commit to SFGY to expose IBGY to being cappable by 5-10 people tops while the 25-35 defend SFGY. Then the alliance push south with 20 and you figure the remaining 20 will slowly be beaten back to SPGY and then hunters will trap the bridge on alliance side and slow the horde down so alliance can kill the warmasters and Drek before the horde can enter Dun Baldar.
I can see why this worked in season of mastery since the damage values are smaller there.
One thing your not considering thou is the hordes advantage in high burst damage metas.
The horde always won when it was a high burst damage situation since allianceâs strength was its defensive capacity/utility from paladins or stoneform/shadowmeld allowing them to not be pressured so they could dictate the battles, aka the alliance is playing white in chess and the horde has to respond by playing black.
But the problem is SoD is insanely bursty. So the hordes ability to have passive resistances against this Fear/Stun(the ones you take damage in) or Tauren have their own stun, or Trolls apply even more burst with berserking(albeit minor), makes it so in all these 6-8 second engagements horde can ignore the most powerful CCâs in the game while applying some of their own and turn up the burst in the case of trolls.
And healing needs to be given at a 2:1 rate to keep someone up in this meta and the math doesnt work for alliance in that favor as the side thats being pressured and doesnt have that CC resistance needs more healing to compensate and live through the fears/stuns that many classes have.
So Iâd argue that from the position of alliance has just fully capped IBGY and the horde has tapped(not capped) SHGY, which im taking as your point. That the alliance wont be able to resist the horde push as they will resist more CC than they take, and if the horde see a large 20ish crowd of alliance moving from IBGY they can have 5-10 ele shams recall to base drop a million earthbind, tremor, five nova totem and grounding totems and spam chain lightening in dreks room while the hordeâs CC resistance and SoD burst damage allows their 20-30 to cap SHGY.
Also dont tell me SPGY is defensable lol. You can start defending it by having a good position but one death and your in the pit with the horde probably on different cliffsides directly above you dropping 1k aoe dps into the spawn area. But even before the spawn area the mountain pass on the side that isnt against the spawn but across the road is climbable from the backside and ranged just sit up there and nuke.
Honestly the best chance the alliance have is just to have 10 night elf hunters shadowmeld across the bridge and explosive shot/trap the hell out of their side of the bridge while someone has a frost trap down.
Obviously the more the better but realistically you arent going to have a gave of 20 nelf hunters as popular as legolass was lol.
Also whoever is rezzing in the tunnel on hordeside (prob not many) can wait the 2m for the rush of the alliance to fully clear out of IBGY and then those guys 3-6 people can back cap IBGY while the 10 ele shamans melt the 20-30 alliance that are trying to get into dreks room without aggroing him and cant get to them bc of LoS as they stand against the wall.
Even if they send their pets after the shaman with beastial wraths up the warmasters will cleave that down quick.
So with IBGY gone and the shamans and drek victorious the alliance are back in the cave or you have a few determined nelf hunters fighting off an increasing number of horde from the south as the alliance are stuck north and away from dun baldar in the cave while the horde dont have to worry about their south and push Van
However this is probably moot since the rush meta is a win/win even if it is another discouraging loss for the alliance. Too bad in WSG youâll have the noggenfogger rocketboots flag carrier jumping from the horde tunnel to run down the field and hop up the easiet GY jump or the LM, BS, Farm win triangle so those dont pop either from lack of alliance incentive.
But at least BRM PvP is pretty lit as its quieted down now and is more even instead of just a kamikaze death run with a 2min timer with hundreds of horde running up and down the mountain looking for an alliance player to spawn. Still 60-40 and most of the alliance are still on the run in there but there are more people fighting back now as the horde majority left
Backing up to your first few paragraphs, if Iâm horde and I keep attacking SHGY what do the alliance do?
If my strat which had a 95% win rate in classic is to send 40 people to shgy what are you going to do to win?
Horde do not have a 95% win rate currently in AV. Its all those damn alliance rerollers that are bring us down. LOL
Pulling her doesnât work anymore. Mostly, horde is just going in there and focusing vann down not even worrying about the elites. Thereâs enough damage to do that very easily. You should also be able to do that on Drek.
The other popular ways is to pull out the elites and kill them all at once by the aid station flag. Then just go in and focus Van.
Your analysis may be true. The one changed variable is the damage output. And we have no testing to eliminate that as a game changer. Iâve also considered that perhaps shamans are beating back defense teams too quickly.
But I still donât see why alliance canât hold horde at the choke. Full team. Donât even need to worry about anything else. Maybe a rogue or two to stop ninja caps at base, etc.
The moment horde caps SF (as in, they start spawning there), you should be able to IB np. They wonât be spawning from the tunnel anymore. They would have to backtrack to stop you â which rarely ever happens in pug avs. Especially since the very moment the horde have an opportunity to rush to your base theyâre going to try and do it.
Basically what should happen the moment they start spawning SF, is your entire team starts the rush. You just have a few people cap IB⌠No horde should be there to stop you.
Run into the base and just kill Drek. Ezpz. You will be miles ahead in the rush meta at that point. You have a clear run straight to drek, while horde still has to make it through the choke and pass your SP kicked back rezzers who will slow them immensely.
Instead of alliance having to turtle to save the game, horde will have to start turtling to save the game. Which they wonât do if they want to be efficient.
Youâre switching the tables.
Your sfgy narrative doesnât even work in the hypothetical sense and you still canât see that.
Sure letâs say all 40 horde go cap sfgy now what? Where are alliance going?
Once they leave shgy thatâs where all the horde are going next to soft cap and as soon as they do that you no longer resurrect down there youâre all the way back at spgy Iâm not sure how this is so hard for you to grasp.
As soon as you leave shgy the game is over
Horde opening is 40 on offense they donât need to defend anything at the start because of their cave graveyard
This sounds true. However there was another guy talking in a different thread saying he queâs with 5 shamans and as soon as alliance start making progress south they all recall and turtle it up with totems and chainlightening, frost shock a few runners, hide behind the wall and he said he hasnt lost a game today doing that.
I think that was the Female orc shaman named Dunning earlier in this very thread.
It does sound comical that 5 shaman can beat 30 alliance in a rush but this is a pug so there wont be coordination to the second of the pull and some people will try to scope it, get one shotted lol then a number will run in and with the earthbind roots drop and chain lightenings and warmasters running around whirlwinding the alliance team I dont see them having the organization to beat the shamanâs trolling the whole team.
The alliance can pull out of the fight, lose drek aggro and try to just fight the warmasters but theyâll lose a cpl ppl pulling out of the building and then a cpl more probably just in the flurry of the warmasters and them organizing who is tanking and who has threat.
So best case the alliance is down to 20 players if they managed to get 29 down there to start while the 10 nelf hunters are stalling the bridge, cus lets be real no 10 alliance is holding the SHGY or SPGY vs 30 horde. Hunters are strong but they cant trap launcher frost trap anymore so I dont see 10 nelf hunters holding the bridge in the instance where the alliance split to go IBGY while the horde did a driveby cap of SHGY, and probably a cliff jump cap of SPGY to gather at the bridge and make an assault of dun baldar.
The reason they have 29 instead of 30 horde is the 1 horde who tried to run the bridge died and informed the horde of the hunter wall strat lineup.
Heres the other problem so the 29/28 horde rush dun baldar (not tight bc its a pug, so you cant explosive ALL of them) and the nelf hunters pull off some miracles and 10v28 they kill 8 of them before all dying.
IF they are lucky they can catch a quick rez at the aid station and those 10 can fight again, with their location being known this time, yet being at the relief hut they dont have much room to work with so even thou its only 2:1 out numbered this time with them 10 and horde 20 best case, they are visible and have not much room to run so best case they survive 30 seconds and kill 4 horde before getting sent to the alliance cave via average luck of rez timer being 15s and it taking 10s to cap.
If they got another lucky rez timer (less than 10 seconds aka less than 33% chance ontop of the other rez timer with the horde running from their position at probably being pushed back to the tanks in dun baldar) then I could see the shaman start to have some trouble as the alliance would be finished with the warmasters and rushing Drek while the shamans are in there with all their totems rooting, grounding and dispelling fear blasting chainlightening comboing with dreks AoE melee cleave as a last ditch effort albeit a good one.
Since both sides will be running down at the same time I think its fair to look at how both defenses will hold up and I feel like the hunters will be pushed back by greater numbers and become increasingly weaker with the less space they have against the greater horde numbers versus the shamans LoS totem position with grounding tremor earthbind roots for the rush and chainlightening spam on melee cleave with the bosses as well as fire nova totem
I donât get his whole âSFGYâ thing because sfgy is worthless.
The clear strat is to send all 40 horde to SHGY, if alliance turtle their itâs fine, they have to win every single fight there and horde only need to win 1 time.
Its like he doesnât understand how the graveyards work.
As soon as ally lose SHGY they no longer rez in the middle of the map they now go to SPGY and he canât seem to grasp that.
Like itâs so obvious of a flaw in the map idk how people donât understand it.
If alliance go on offense they lose because horde will soft cap SHGY then just go soft cap the graveyard ally just soft capped.
If ally soft cap IBGY or sfgy or FWGY as soon as horde soft cap SHGY they just split off 20 people and go retake it, and at that point since SHGY was soft capped ally donât rez anywhere near the graveyard they are trying to defend.
Itâs such an obvious flaw in the map and he still canât see it.
Tbf itâs usually 20 alliance and they run in split like 6 try to come in and kill you someone always goofs with a pet or a living bomb and then itâs on. When Drek rolls out in the vestibule with with bois and you got 5 hard pipe hitting brothas sending out 5 target flame shocks that can all initial crit for 1-1.4k and power surge rolling lava bursts on healer or chainlightnings while the generals are bay blading. People fall quick.
Sometimes the alliance are smart and gather actually as 30 in a huge blob move in and then itâs curtains for us but we can usually do a decent job stalling and hope for the horde zug to catch up.
But if horde donât do this, or donât slow trap alliance, Allliance win most rushes. Because they can just frost trap the ONE entrance into their base with 3-4 hunters and buy their Zerg time to ride right past the horde and kill drekk. Funnily enough even tho horde is closer if they chose to outright ignore alliance and rush van, its comes down to who slows the other team better and imo horde forfeits its innate male advantage of graveyards. Because graveyard advantages work by putting people in them.
Something really does need to be done about shamans.
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With Hordes 99% win rate, we already did months ago.
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Couldnât care less about a win or lose. Sfgy is taken to prevent a turtle. Or at least it helps lol