What are these theoretical things that Moira would have done if not for human influence? Her biggest interest was in Ironforge itself and more broadly in the unification of Ironforge and Shadowforge under her/her son’s rule, which she seems to have accomplished.
The thing about the Dwarves is that by the standards of Azeroth they’re still relatively insular and mostly care about their own territories. Their position in the Alliance is a byproduct of the fact that they’re besties with the Humans even before the Second War, and consider themselves (at least the Bronzebeards) to be forever in the Alliance’s debt because it saved Ironforge in the Second War.
Their interests beyond Khaz Modan almost entirely take the form of supporting the interests of the humans, both due to the aforementioned debt and the fact that Dwarven security and Human security are effectively the same thing given their ties. The Humans have an interest in a stable and prosperous Khaz Modan just like the Dwarves have an interest in a stable and prosperous Stormwind and Lordaeron, so I don’t see how Moira is acting as a human puppet by recognizing this.
If you want the Alliance to behave like and be perceived as more like an alliance of independent nations then you also need to recognize that the foundation of alliances is shared interests, and if those interests are strong enough then nations may even be willing to give up a degree of sovereignty for them.
The biggest problem I believe that destroyed a lot of what made Dwarves unique was their restrictions on specific arts and talents. The unition of the three hammers was both a benefit, but also a huge drawback as the Clans lose all sort of real identity. They all work together, they all have the same talents and strengths.
In Classic and before Cataclysm’s class overhaul; Dwarves were the Bronzebeard Dwarves. A clan that prided itself on its strength and genius. They saw the wickedness in the Dark Iron Clan’s magic and refused to utilize it as it had ruined Grim Batol and wrought forth Ragnaros from the elemental plane. They had EXTREMELY justified reasons to not practice magic widely.
This made them empathetic to the Night Elves who shared similar views of the Arcane and darker arts. they shared similar pain and reasons to not indulge such powers for their consequences. Their conflict with the Dark Iron Clan made them have a common enemy and a reason to reject such arts. This conflict brought interest since not all Dwarves shared the same mindset. Given they were allied with the Humans and gnomes who indulged in so.
Dwarves have lost a lot of the limitations they imposed which builds conflict and boundaries to draw stories on. They’ve gone hard on uniting the three hammers, but at the same rate destroyed the quality of why the restrictions made each Clan feel unique. No longer do the clans really matter nor provide anything of substance. Only Dark Iron Dwarves seem to have a bold intent to be loud and firey… And thats it.
I think its too late to draw any interesting parallels for them. they’ve shed a lot of the conflicts and had so many stories concluded that as a race… they have no more direction. They’ve got no reason to hate the Horde beyond. “Well, the Humans hate them. So we ought to too!” This follows in tandem that the Gnomes have no particular greviances beyond human kingdoms having direct conflicts.
More likely because her baby-daddy was dead and using her grasp on the Dark Irons was a last-ditch effort to force her claim on the throne. Underhanded tactics are a Dark Iron thing after all. Personally, I killed her every time I went to BRD.
I wanted to like Moira, but she shows up with a chip on her shoulder and immediately rolls over and turns into a sycophant for the outsider who turned Ironforge into a banana-republic. She even repeats Anduin’s “let’s give peace a chance” mantra instead of seeing an opportunity the Dark Iron way. Hard pass.
Moira literally receives the throne by birthright. It’s hers if she was a warrior, if she were a prim and proper princess, if she were a scholar, or if she spent all day trolling Ironforge’s version of Reddit.
Seeing as how I think there was a quest that needed you to keep her alive, I’m going to assume you meant “After checking with the group who had spent several hours with me in this laborious dungeon, I made sure no one needed the quest before I killed her.”
As far as for not being shrewd and cutthroat (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by Dark Iron way), are you certain? Both Ironforge and Shadowforge were relatively untouched by the war. How does it benefit the dwarves to continue spending resources and spilling dwarven blood in an official capacity? From the Dark Iron perspective, what’s in it for them?
Or for the Bronzebeard side, why would they stand against the King who they were openly allied with? The one that represented a kingdom they were indebted to? Anduin wasn’t saying “Give all our resources to the sea” or anything. He was saying “Let’s try to stop killing each other”. Or, as the Bronzebeard would hear it, “Hey, let’s do the thing that gets people to leave us alone.”
Moira is walking a tightrope act of not seeming too violent for the Bronzebeards and not seeming too soft for the Dark Irons. With the decision to “give peace a chance”, she accomplishes the following in one fell swoop:
Appeases the Dark Irons
Appeases the Bronzebeards
Demonstrates a degree of wisdom that shows she is willing to do the right thing politically
Further secures her position in the most powerful political force on the planet
I don’t know, that seems pretty calculated and politic.
And that’s just a political decision. For all we know, she was personally fine with ending the war.
Again, feel free to dislike whoever, but Moira’s decision makes sense.
If you are cool with making up your own interpretations in order to give a puddle some depth, more power to you. Personally I’d rather see some inner-Alliance dialogue that amounts to more than reacting to the Horde doing anything or Wrynnsplaining. Hell, just taking the focus off Anduin or Jaina for 5 minutes would be a huge improvement.
But hey, I know I’m asking for a pony instead of pocket lint seeing as Blizzard’s storytelling capability has only nose-dived in the last few expansions.
Not just that but she also made herself look like the only rational leader of the Dwarves, when the others were all set to rekindle their Civil War. Not only did she shame the other two leaders into humility but also established herself among the rest of the Alliance Leaders as someone who’ll work with them towards a common goal.
Politically, it was shrewd maneuvering and if anything, she used Varian to help position herself into a far better place and now her son is set to inherit 2 seats on the council.
Oh, come now. Both of us are making up our own interpretations of what’s happening. I haven’t come across anything actually written where Moira openly says “I’m going to do whatever the humans want” any more than I’ve come across things saying “I’m going to manipulate these people with shred political tactics”.
But I think there might be some miscommunication here. Are you arguing that the writers need to remember that there are more people on the Alliance side than humans? If so, I agree with you, have said that in other threads, and I’m pretty sure you can see me annoyed that they’re forgetting the night elves in particular aren’t just there. If you think I’m just saying that now, then, by all means, scroll up.
Or are you arguing that the political actions that the dwarves are taking don’t make any sense, in particular Moira? Because if that’s the case, then, yes, I disagree. Ainhin said it much more effectively than I:
And that’s just the dwarves in general. When it comes to Moira, I stand by what I said, and what Faelia added. Among other things, you said you suggested you wanted Moira to handle things “the Dark Iron way”, which I imagine are underhanded tactics. Isn’t that what she did? She made her allies look dumber than her to everyone in power, took major steps towards her goal, and the way she did it put her in absolutely zero danger. Seriously, that is a political masterstroke.
In case I’m not being clear, I agree that they need to remember the Alliance is more than humans.
They need to stop treating gnomes and their mechanical counterparts as running jokes. Gnomes, in particular, have a history that is absolutely tragic if played straight up.
The draenei are interdimensional, ageless warriors that cut their teeth directly fighting the largest threat the universe has known. By nature, they lean towards the zealous side. They have been using magic longer than any race on Azeroth, have spaceships that that can provide orbital support and transfer troops, and are on awesome terms with those floating demigods.
The worgen just by themselves are enough of a threat that druids said “…yeah, no, let’s not do that.” Druids thought that animals were enough of a threat.
And so on.
But the example you chose isn’t an example of developers only focusing on humans. This was them literally expanding on what’s been going on with dwarves. I just disagree (and it’s fine that we don’t see eye to eye on this) with the stance you seem to be taking that the formation of the Council of the Three Hammers was created to kowtow to humans, and that Moira is just some patsy.
This is Moira Bronzebeard. Literally no one tells her what to do. Her father couldn’t tell her what to do.
No one tells dwarves what to do, really. But they are part of an Alliance, so some of their decisions have to reflect that. Otherwise, what’s the point in being in an Alliance at all?
One simple solution to the “Flawless Alliance” problem: Yrel comes to Azeroth while we’re away in the Shadowlands, and strikes a pact between her Lightbound and Turalyon’s Stormwind, thus villain-batting a major part of the Alliance…
AU Xe’ra is still out there, maybe she’s not “the Light Mother” mentioned in that book, but I would eat my hat if she wasn’t somehow involved with the Lightbound in the Mag’har recruitment questline…
So the Lightbound and their Naaru are joined by Turalyon and possibly Lothraxion as well… the Scarlet Crusade then takes the perfect opportunity to come out of hiding and join them, being welcome into Stormwind for the first time in how long? Meanwhile, all of Stormwinds citizens in this scenario are being given the same treatment as the Mag’har orcs back on AU Draenor; the Lightbound give them the choice of converting to the Light, dying, or being forcibly converted like when MU Xe’ra tried to turn Illidan…
To showcase their combined power as expansion villains, they raze Thunder Bluff and start a new war with the Horde, since Stormwind is now taken over so the other faction naturally has to lose a city as well… and in that Fifth War, the Horde nearly gets steamrolled, until the forces of resistance from other capitols of the Alliance – and surviving rebels within Stormwind – join forces with them against the Lightbound…
IL’GYNOTH WHISPER BELOW:
“The Golden One claims a Vacant Throne… The Crown of Light will bring only darkness…”
How was that not MORE neglect? Magni basically became the Dwarven equivalent of Thrall…
This a thousand times. The Gnomes are the only society on Azeroth with true representative government and they sacrificed their nation’s well being to give the Alliance a fighting chance.
I don’t think there’s anybody else in Warcraft who have sacrificed so much and been rewarded so little as the Gnomes.
I don’t really have a problem with the Alliance having a Supreme Commander/Central character. If it’s handled right however. It’s also nice to see the title rotate a bit… not in the same way the Warchief title was, but with Turalyon as the head its nice to FINALLY see it off a Wrynn. The Wrynn show has been so drawn out and boring to me. I loved Varian back in WOTLK but hated what they did to him in MOP. Anduin i’ve always found boring and annoying. He’s was getting better in Legion & the start of BFA but again i lost interest in him as the expansion went on. “High King” at least as it was shown in game WAS treated as a hereditary title. It didn’t help when you had legit other Kings/Leaders referring to them as “My King” which i didn’t care for. Turalyon at the very least makes sense as the High Commander given his military history. And it’s a breath of fresh air with him as the leader of the Alliance & Stormwind. Plus he’s a Lordaeron noble which makes him the only notable Lordaeron character in the Alliance.
The Dwarves are really underused. To the point that i actually don’t like the Council of Three Hammers that much. I like the Dark Irons & Wildhammers being part of the Alliance, but the Council honestly just feels like it gives the writers a reason to NOT use the Dwarves in a major role because they no longer have a central leader. I’m just waiting for the point where Moira’s son is grown and becomes the King. Hopefully at that point they’ll actually use them. But who knows if we’ll ever get there. Apparently every expansion (even the so called BIGGEST Legion invasion ever) only lasts 1 year because reasons.
As for Stormwind, it lost any and all identity that it had after WOTLK. It has no culture of its own anymore. All of it’s central organizations have been lost or made irrelevant. The Church being one of the major casualties of that since Benedictus turned evil in CATA only to be discovered by… Thrall of all people. That was over a decade ago and he’s never been replaced. The Silver Hand doesn’t even do anything Alliance side either. Do they even have a leader of their Stormwind/Ironforge branches? I guess it should be Turalyon if so but we have no idea. I’m happy that Stromgarde was reclaimed however. Even if it’s sort of a vassal of Stormwind. Would be nice to see Danath Trollbane actually do something though. I guess it’s better he’s AFK as the King of Stromgarde though rather than being AFK in Outland
For the Draenei i’d like to see them build an actual city. Build a “New Karabor” to be their capitol city. Let the Draenei/Lightforged establish a proper Kingdom on Azeroth with settlements spread across the world.
This is one of those things that they could kind of use to give the Alliance an aggressive stance. The Draenei have a legitimate grievance with the orcs, what with that whole genocide thing.
They could easily - easily - have some Draenei seek to establish new settlements for their people by wiping out an area where orcs have a strong warlock population. This could be met with push back from the horde, noting that those orc warlocks played pivotal roles in fights against the Lich King, the twilight’s Hammer, whatever. The Draenei could counter that those are the same Magics the Orcs used when they massacred their people. And Bingo Bango, you’ve got an actual conflict where there is some nuance. Something that doesn’t have the Horde choking puppies to death before poisoning the orphans, while the Alliance acts like it’s some misunderstanding on a 1950s sitcom.
Not sure it counts as “sacrificing” to just lose everything without having had any say in it.
The sacrifice of the Illidari isn’t in what the Legion took from them. That’s their loss. Their sacrifice is choosing to undergo the torment of turning themselves into demon hunters in order to avenge that loss.
Forsaken are in the same boat as the original Ebon Blade death knights; neither actually decided to become what they are, so while they strive to overcome what they’ve lost and what they are, being that way doesn’t technically count as a sacrifice. They didn’t pay the price of becoming undead to garner some benefit.
That said, the gnomes are uniquely in a position of apparently having very little concept of war whatsoever before they got dragged into it by the dwarves. War just wasn’t something they did. So by taking up arms and fighting, they’ve arguably sacrificed a big part of their identity as gnomes throughout the centuries before the Second War.
It’s even in Mekkatorque’s short story. He wonders if a gnome is truly even still a gnome when they choose a path of violence, to the point that he doesn’t really consider Thermaplugg to be one any longer and when considering the many gnomes who since took up weapons to fight for the Alliance, fears that the consequences of the traitor’s actions may include their people no longer being themselves. That to recover from the damage done, gnomekind as a whole may be sacrificing a fundamental part of what makes them who they are.
I mean there are really so many areas where Alliance stories could be explored. Things that were there in Vanilla, but subsequently ignored or dropped as Blizzard pursued the “Great Homogenization” starting in Cata.
Stormwind - What makes Stormwind unique and different than generic medieval fantasy kingdom #34? What happened to the House of Nobles? There were a few quests back in Vanilla that at least hinted at some possibilities of some domestic intrigue. Prior to Cata, Stormwind did not appear to be an absolute monarchy, it appeared to be a more feudal monarchy with the King/Queen needing to make some effort to accommodate the nobility. Once Varian returned, Blizz started writing it as an absolute monarchy and the nobility vanished from sight.
Dwarves - Anyone else remember the Dwarven Senate? I think that there are still a handful of NPCs in Ironforge labelled “Senator”. But there were quests in Vanilla that indicated that not only was Magni’s authority not absolute, but that there were tensions between him and the Dwarven Senate. And then that just vanished…
Gnomes - Gnomergan…I mean come on…let’s get it done. Also, how does Gelbin becoming King of the Gnomes square with High Tinker being an elected position? Is this some kind of Holy Roman Emperor situation or what?
Night Elves - A society that was stable and undisturbed for thousands of years has been thrown into turmoil by a series of catastrophic events in what for them is a tiny time span. This has to be having serious political, social and cultural ramifications - let’s explore that a bit.
Worgen - I mean come on - throw these guys a bone (Sorry, couldn’t resist). These guys should be scary bad asses. They should be the advanced scouts/special forces of the Alliance. They should be striking terror in the hearts of the enemies of the Alliance. Instead, they’re doing not much of anything…Take the Genn/Sylvannas video from Legion - above and beyond enjoying that because it was a solid shot at Sylvannas, it was awesome because it actually showed a worgen behaving like a worgen - being scary, attacking out of the shadows.
And one can go on and on. There is a ton of interesting material for Blizz to work with, if only they would spend some time on it.
The topic of Stormwind in Cata & onward is one that constantly annoys me. Rather than actually EXPANDING on the human story properly after WOTLK where they defeated the Prince who had betrayed them, their story just… dropped off. Actually worse than that. Two of their zones (Westfall & Redridge) were popculture spoofs. Rather than getting actual post War development in these zones on Humanity/Stormwind’s culture going forward, we instead got poop/fart jokes.
Why would anyone want a storyline like helping a Knight & his comrades in Redridge reform the Brotherhood of the Horse to fight back the Blackrock Orcs & Gnolls? Why would anyone want that when instead we could have a Rambo Parody?
