Though these numbers would need to be adjusted with the hybrid status being factored in. Was the numbers tuned too harshly for the utility provided well the argument here over damage and healing would say that they was.
The Sweet spot would be to make the class be able to do good damage with diminished heals compared to their healing specs and the same said for the damage for the healing specs.
It does…
What peoples top DPS isn’t that important. You need DPS in general, but it isn’t what makes or breaks a raid. You can have half the dps wipe and still complete a raid.
You need the bodies… that’s about it.
Zengaku, can you please show us your work here? I don’t see how you could possibly calculate this result with the multitude of variables that would affect the length of the boss fight. I think you made this claim up. Please support it with your research that you claim you have already done.
Otherwise, please admit that this claim is completely made up.
I mean you’re free to believe that if you like and call your raiders cannon fodder… but eh wouldn’t really want to be in such a toxic atmosphere.
It is sad that you’re discouraged from playing a spec you really like because it’s unlikely you’ll get invited to pugs or something, but I’d just say if you wanna play a boomy, join a raiding guild that will let you. And im my experience over the years, only the real jerks will give a damn. As long as you’re geared and your spec is optimal, you’ll get invites.
Would love to, but I think this is ultimately pointless because it won’t change your mind.
Patchwork has 3,850,000 HP and a 7 minute enrage timer.
Minimum dps required to down patchwork is 9500 dps minimum. With a group of 26 dps(Which is the ideal raid), that’s a minimum of 356 dps per dps.
But… we are not factoring in wanding from healers and tank dps… which would be another equivalent of 2 dps(And that is generous).
So minimum 340 dps per dps. If you are a dps that is pull less than that, you are being carried.
So for People that are Naxx geared, the average dps for classes are roughly…
850 range:
Fury Warrior
Rogue
Fire Mage
750 range:
Warlock
700:
Hunter
Shadow, Elemental, Feral, Ret, Boomkin: 400-600
This is an average, some can go higher, some can go lower… and world buffs/flasks and stuff can shoot any one of these higher… also depends on the length of the fight. I have to pick a situation here so we can see the trend… I am not picking a situation that favors one side or another.
But one thing that doesn’t change…
Ret pallys do about half the damage a pure dps class does.
you have 28 dps…According to the dps above, lets say the raidwide average dps is 750, 21,000 raid dps. Patchwork goes down in 3 minutes and 3 seconds.
Substitute a Ret pally for a rogue, lets say the Ret Pally does 350 dps which is a bit less than half of the average.
Patchwork goes down in 3 min. and 6.6 seconds…
only a 3.6 second difference…
and what do you get in return? Lay on Hands, A tanky-er dps with bubble(A dead dps is a bad dps), BoP, buffs and auras… which are all X factors.
Sounds like a no brainer to me… I’ll bring whoever shows up.
This calculation does not accurately calculate the “max” effects of replacing a rogue as you claimed it does. You are making a crazy amount of assumptions which do not reflect the “max” effect on a raid.
Why are you assuming an ideal raid composition if you are trying to calculate a “max” effect? This would, at best, point you toward a minimum “best case” effect.
Where are you getting these numbers since Nax gear isn’t in the game atm and there can be no logs to justify such a calculation?
How does an average situation reflect the “max” effect? That would, at best, point you toward an average effect.
You are picking a situation that massively diminishes the possible effects of replacing a Rogue with a Ret Pally. You have assumed ideal raid composition, an average raidwide DPS number that is completely arbitrary, and that no raid members die during the fight. This is not a worst case scenario that would give us the possible “max” effect that you claimed this shows. Rather it displays a near best case scenario that reflects a near minimum effect.
This can be further illustrated by the fact that all of your assumptions result in your hypothetical raid killing the boss in 3 minutes and 3 seconds when the enrage timer is at 7 minutes. That isn’t a typical group pushing through the content. That is a group that has mastered this fight and is already overgearing the encounter. A group that was pushing this content and struggling to beat the enrage timer would take more than twice as long to complete the fight.
So yeah, this is not what you claimed it to be. This is not a calculation reflecting the “max” effect of wasting a DPS slot on a Ret Pally.
I have to start somewhere… and I picked a situation that would most favor your argument within reason.
But these are still the results. Average raid dps is all that matters. That is what a dps calculator calculates… how much dps you have done over the course of the fight… we know all the variable, it doesn’t matter what you do in between… if you do X dps on average over time… the boss will go down in X time… period.
It doesn’t ultimately matter how geared the group is, the dps comparisons will be the same ratios… if all parties are equally geared.
I expected this reply from you… I’ll take the win where you were wrong about…
“Otherwise, please admit that this claim is completely made up.”
You have no leg to stand on, just endless what ifs…
This is laughably false. You picked a situation that approaches a best case scenario where the effects of wasting a raid slot are minimized as much as possible. Either you don’t realize just how badly your scenario is skewed (despite your hypothetical group breezing through the encounter in less than half the time of the enrage timer) or else you are deliberately lying.
But where are you getting your average DPS numbers? We have precisely zero logs to show us what groups can actually do on Patchwerk fights because that raid isn’t even in the game yet.
Sorry, but this is yet another objectively false claim. A group that isn’t geared as well is going to take longer to complete a fight and is going to have more deaths. That will hugely magnify the effects of replacing a proficient melee DPS with a Ret Pally that can only manage half the output. This is so blatantly obvious that again, you are either oblivious to the math or else you are intentionally lying.
You are losing DPS (damage per second) by bringing a Ret Pally. The effects of that loss are obviously magnified by time because it is damage per second. The longer the fight goes, the more the choice to bring a Ret Pally in this slot is going to hurt you.
You should have expected me to question your overwhelming volume of assumptions. In fact, your calculation is completely made up because you made arbitrary (i.e. made up) assumptions in order to create this calculation.
Actually, I have objective facts and math on my side. A “max” effect of replacing a Ret Pally will obviously, objectively, and undeniably be far worse than your calculation. You are imagining a scenario with a group that is dominating the fight and could leave several of their DPS slots empty and still not approach the enrage timer and claiming that scenario is where we can see the “max” effect of bringing a poor DPS. That is patently ridiculous. I don’t know how you can possibly expect any rational or objective person to believe you.
At this point, you have made an objectively false claim (that the max effect of replacing a rogue with a Ret Pally is 3 seconds longer to kill the boss). I’ve illustrated precisely how that calculation is mathematically not even possibly reflective of the max effect of that choice. You can either double down on this claim (as you are doing so far), which should lead any reader to believe that you are a liar and nothing you say on this topic should be trusted or else you should admit that your “research” did not actually reflect what you claim that it did.
So which do you want to do? Do you want to admit that your claim was (at minimum) grossly exaggerated or do you want to tell us all that you are lying?
I wasn’t lying…
I chose lower than minimum dps for the Ret Pally and I went to a 3rd party to get the Average dps ranges fro Nax…
I also undersold the amount of dps tanks and healrs wands do.
In the situation I did, replacing a Rogue with a RET Pally is only 3 seconds… that is a fact.
We can calculate the value for any other situation… but I am telling you, it isn’t that different. The dps ranges won’t change… a RET pally will still do around half the damage a pure dps does.
In reality actually… fights will be even shorter… making the margin even smaller.
Untenable means not defensible - little merit. Your rational for deeming certain players unfit or “a burden”, “a waste”, “meaningless” is apparently, (I’ll paraphrase you here), to spare them the humiliation you suffered 14 years ago. To save them from themselves. Noble. I doubt very much that’s the reason, I think you just want to pay that humiliation forward.
To reiterate, it’s not 14 years ago buddy. Do you understand that? It’s not 14 years ago. People can learn mechanics, it’s all been done - it’s rote. All your regurgitation of other people’s theory crafting from back in the day, what does it mean? How is it relevant? You think this is cutting edge content? Do you even understand the demographic? You’re not going to persuade me that crapping on people from great heights because they play a spec you don’t condone is somehow saving them. You’re deluding yourself.
But you claimed this was the “max” effect and there is no possible way that a scenario in which the group is more than 50% ahead of the enrage timer represents the maximum effect. Whatever your intentions and methods, the resulting scenario obviously does not reflect what you claimed. The raidwide average DPS figure you used to calculate how fast the gap in DPS from bringing the Ret Pally could be closed (21,000) is more than double the minimum DPS required to successfully kill this boss (9500). It stretches the bounds of believability that you could honestly believe that using such inflated numbers was representative of a worst case scenario that would illustrate the “max” effect you claimed.
But you portrayed the scenario you imagined as the “max” effect and it’s just as much of a fact that this is obviously and objectively untrue.
It will actually change exponentially when tweaking the variables to match a more realistic scenario of a group pushing the content. The Ret Pally’s DPS output remains constant but the length of the fight makes the multiplier you use on that number higher. If other DPS die, there is less DPS to make up the gap, which means that it takes longer to make up that gap. In other words, in a more realistic scenario the gap becomes larger and the DPS available to close that gap becomes less.
Oh please,…you don’t actually expect us to believe that the average kill time on Patchwerk is going to be less than 3 minutes, do you? Even if we accepted this, those average kill times would not represent the “max” effect that a group struggling with the content would experience. Any calculation that does not begin with a hypothetical scenario in which the kill time is approaching the enrage timer cannot, by definition, be illustrating the “max” effect.
I know what it means, but your usage of it was awkward in context. In fact, you appear to be writing your replies with a thesaurus at your side and your writing style, as a result, comes across as artificial.
My rationale for making the determination is that it is an accurate conclusion based upon the available objective facts. My rationale for sharing that determination and shooting down misinformation propagated by folks like yourself is to allow other players to make an informed decision about their class choice and to provide them with a reasonable expectation of what that choice might produce. I wouldn’t exactly call it noble. It’s just being truthful.
I’m not sure what “humiliation” you are referring to. I was never humiliated by my class choice. I regretted it because I ended up not enjoying that class after pouring thousands of hours into it.
Which is why I am looking at logs from the last few weeks. Do you understand that? The logs we are looking at are all from the last 30 days and not 14 years ago.
Again, I’m not using theorycrafting at all…not from 14 years ago or 14 minutes ago. I am relying on the logs of what people are actually accomplishing right now. Why is that difficult for you to understand?
And you aren’t going to persuade me or anyone else by resorting to absurd, bad-faith straw man arguments. I’m not crapping on anyone. I’m not crapping on any player. I’m not even crapping on a particular spec. I’m pointing to the objective facts that reflect what even incredibly skilled and competent players can realistically achieve when running these particular specs. Moreover, I have repeatedly explained that I have no problem with anyone running these specs or with anyone taking them to a raid. My only concern is that we not set unrealistic expectations on what it will take for that to be feasible.
You’ve said it, not I, they are a burden, their contribution is meaningless and so on. That’s not crapping on people? That’s not casting shade. Beside, you know, you’re just barking up the wrong tree here, people are going to clear it just fine with less than optimal groups - you’re not saving anyone from anything. You’re blowing your own horn to hear yourself toot.
To be fair, some people actually believe that insulting someone in a derogatory or condescending way is actually helpful.
It’s not the player’s fault that their class is tuned the way that it is. I don’t blame a Ret Pally for not being able to contribute meaningful DPS. It isn’t a reflection of their skill, commitment, or effort. It’s a reflection of what the spec is capable of in this context.
Sure, some definitely will, but if you don’t also think that some people who are accustomed to Ret being a viable DPS spec in retail will roll one and eventually decide they have to spec Resto because of the spec’s deficiencies in Classic, then you aren’t being honest with yourself.
And some people believe that telling people the truth about what they can expect to achieve at max level with a particular spec somehow qualifies as an insult.
It all depends on how you tell them.
Imagine, if you would, that you’re a baker. You make the most delicious apple pie known to man. Word gets around that you make this delicious pie. People want a slice of it. But instead of cutting them out a slice and handing it to them, you smash the pie in their face.
Those people no longer want your pie or anything else you have to offer.
TL;DR, catch flies with honey, not vinegar.
Ret Pallies are welcome in our group - it might be more of a challenge, but we’re not going to be dissuaded by a challenge - we’ll rise to it, have fun and enjoy it. That’s kind of the point.
That’s fantastic. I’m not asking you to run from the challenge and I have no problem with you welcoming them to your groups. I just don’t see any need to lie about how much more of a challenge it will be.