To be clear though, the best leaderboard for torghast would be highest level reached with the limited deaths per floor… not fastest push through with each level scaling exponentially in difficulty to match the anima power curve with it truly having no limit on levels.
In raids that works in world content that work. I’m find with time content
I agree. I hate timers. Older mmorpgs really stayed away from this feature and I loved it.
timed just takes you out of the mmo atmosphere and puts you into esports mode.
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Agreed. I think the oldest timer I can remember is the Zul’ Aman Bear run in BC. That was the exception and not the rule and only rewarded a cosmetic extra you could get once (per player), not the central expansion focus.
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Bronze Drake was timed in TBC.
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Did you not actually read the OP or just not understand him?
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It was timed technically, but I remember completing that timer the first time I entered that dungeon so it wasn’t really tightly tuned. Also that was a one time cosmetic reward, not a you have to do it this way every time. I’m fine with that type of timer similar to the bear mount runs of ZA.
To that extent BC bosses started getting enrage timers as well. I’m not against timers in general… just more against long lead UI timers in every piece of content.
Torghast in particular isn’t timed as far as I know, it’s limited on deaths. I could be wrong, but either way it’s less of a time trial than M+.
I think the “time trial” format works in some aspects, but I do agree that it shouldn’t be what all content aspires to outside of raid.
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This isn’t particularly aimed at you but, i’d like to ask what about timers is not mmo like? I’ve seen this passed around a bit lately and don’t really know why.
That’s a you thing, not a “i have kids so i can’t play” thing. Most of our guild is older folks with kids, I’m turning 50 this year, myself.
We still raid Cutting Edge. I have no problem timing 15+ keys or doing 5-mask visions.
Please don’t use “I’m older now” as an excuse.
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I find it interesting that the “I cant still down for an hour” excuse is being used for content that if you meet the timer…takes no where close to an hour.
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Different people have different jobs, responsibilities, incomes, familial situations, extracuriculars, etc. If you literally cant think of a time in your life where you didnt have the OP’s problem then you’re spouting from a position of some privilege. If you have gone through periods like that but are better set up now, then you’re basically an “Ive got mine” boomer.
Blizzard doesnt have to make every dribble of content cater to people with time constraints, but criticizing people with time constraints is a filthy habit this forum has.
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I still turn 15+ keys every week on multiple characters, raid mythic and parse purple, do arenas to a duelist level on multiple characters and every other thing the game offers. Don’t think because I want to be able to take breaks in the middle of long sessions that means I’m not able to do the content. I just prefer to be able to take breaks in content where timers are unnecessary.
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I feel like this is overly shortsighted, personally. Most of us aren’t going to sit there waiting for Lust/Warp every pull. Designing around that concern is really just a solution looking for a problem.
They could easily limit us in different ways, anyway. One lust/warp per floor, for example. Boom. We’re not waiting on that.
If we’re talking about people wanting to wait on 1-3 minute cool down spells between pulls then the “soft” timer isn’t going to be very soft at all. It’s just going to be a longer timer than we have in M+.
Realistically very few people by subscriber count are actually going to try and abuse 5-10 minute cool downs like that (and those can be effectively limited per-floor instead of adding timers), and the 1-3 minute cool downs aren’t worth worrying yourself over. You’ll spend at least half of that cool down on the trash packs in many cases. There’s no reason to try and limit those.
Ultimately, though, the big reason everyone is having fun with Torghast is because it’s an unlimited grind that can be picked up and played as long as you want.
I have little doubt that Blizzard is going to make it a 3-5 times a week thing, add a timer to prevent you from doing it for hours on end, and ultimately ruin Torghast so completely that it’s going to be the next Warfront/Islands all over again. Then they’ll look at us with surprised pikachu face, backtrack it slowly over the expansion, and we’ll all be too bored of it by the time it’s interesting to do.
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RPGs have classically been about slow paced strategy and planning, not super fast twitch gameplay encouraged by a big timer UI up in the middle-top of the screen.
Think the old text adventures. Ultima. Baldur’s Gate. Dragon Age. The original World of Wacraft with its slow-pull dungeons and planning before each. So much socialising happened in those dungeons for the very reason it took a lot of time and it wasn’t constant action-- indeed big timers of doom are in my opinion damaging to the MMO genre because it discourages downtime in which socialisation occurs more.
An absolutely critical aspect of RPGs is immersion. That means the player should be able to simply observe the world and take in the fantasy, in their own time. They most certainly aren’t pew-pew kill-kill zerg-zerg fast-fast before the clock runs down-- indeed I would argue they inhabit the other side of the gaming spectrum.
I want to take my time and enjoy the environments, the music and graphics. That isn’t helped with the constant tapping on the shoulder “Hurry up there’s only one minute left!”.
Such things remind me of arcade racing games. I’m just surprised there isn’t a corny announcer “5,4,3,2,1 You’rrrrrre up!!”.
Amazingly Metzen made some very good statements. He said the world is the main character in World of Warcraft. It’s tragic to think how far things have fallen. What world, I ask you?
It should be renamed Instances of Battle For Azeroth. I’m not against instances of course, as I like old style dungeons and Torghast looks promising-- I just think they need to exist in addition to a well realised open world.
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I suspect it has to do with the idea that MMO’s are, traditionally, modeled after the idea that the more you put in the more you get out. Limiting how much you can put in goes against the wisdom of the past to a lot of people.
Historically you didn’t necessarily need to be at the top of the skill tree if you could put in more time. Someone who was very skilled could get a lot out of an hour or two a day, but someone who was willing to put in 6 hours a day would still be getting stuff out. The idea was that time investment should have a value all on it’s own.
Timers make content where time investment isn’t nearly as useful because you can’t just arbitrarily invest more time. A lot of traditional content would let you slowly and methodically get through content. A guild might be able to burn through a raid in 3 hours and get X gear, another guild might not be that skilled so it takes them 7 hours but they still get X gear.
Whether you agree with that, or not, is entirely personal and subjective. I don’t care much for timers, but my problem is that even if I don’t care that I didn’t make the timer everyone else treats it as a failure.
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Timers seem more immersive if you ask me if thats the angle you’re going for. If i’m in say, scarlet monestary, isn’t it a bit weird i have time to talk about the weather with the people i’m storming the place with? Shouldn’t guards be showing up to iunno…do stuff? Talking takes time and focus away in a dangerous situation where at any time the entire scarlet crusade could be on us. Lets do what we need to do and get out of here.
And if the OP had posted another “I don’t like this because of how I play” that would be fine. It’s his “the playerbase is getting older so Blizzard needs to change things” bit that bothers me.
A fair point. That said, that is why I like the idea of timers being on a per level type approach with a pause at the end of a level giving you the ability to rush through kill everything in one area before pressing into the next. There is some history in the seeing of an upcoming pack and deciding who will CC what with markers and then executing the plan for that trash pack.
That was Wrath, first of all. Second of all, it was a one time achievement reward, not something that you had to do on repeat, again and again and again (which creates exhaustion).
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