More than Vanilla but more of the population raids than Vanilla. Are you saying that cause more guilds are beating mythic bosses that vanilla bosses were harder? lol
The hardest parts of vanilla raiding was circumstances outside of the boss fight, attuning, organizing, the amount of loot dropped. The mechanics theres no comparison
Yes.
Are you telling me that the WoW playerbase is more hardcore in raiding that Vanilla/TBC? lol
Yes and no. The person I responded to made the allusion that farming the same encounter for weeks on end would be some kind of dreadful experience that is utterly alien in Classic, while Retail has turned it into a grind with Mythic+.
In classic youâll be farming the same exact encounter for months because each 40 man raid boss only drops 2, or sometimes 3, epic items per kill, and they have large loot drop tables.
In retail, you have personal loot. So you donât need to farm a boss for months to get âyour drop.â So they implemented Mythic+ as a means to give you an incentive to continue running the encounters. Albeit slightly different versions of them, as each increment in difficultly provides incrementally better loot.
Overall, Iâd say the incremental increase to difficulty, and incremental improvement in loot was absolutely brilliant game design on Blizzardâs part. The personal loot system is another matter.
It is the (insert-prefix-here)forging, âcatch up gearâ, and simplifications of gameplay by removal of many stats to the point where the only stat you really need to look at is itemlevel, that all converge together to turn retail into an undesirable cluster.
thatâs it right there. most modern WoW M+ raiders can twitch like lightning, but probably couldnât strategize their way out of a wet paper bag IMO.
Yeah but its on a weekly cooldown, giving you time to rest in between bouts. The constant spam of having to do varying difficulties in modern is exhausting.
Back during wrath I still remember running TOC 8 or so times a week and as a result I LOATHED that place. Same with mythic+ garbage. Youâre just spam running things in the hopes of better gear and you kinda have to in order to stay on top of things.
Ah no. The system of slowly increasing hp values just means spend more time in a dungeon and the gradual increase to item levels meant that you spent a lot of time being exhausted because your BIS dropped, you got excited, but then it wasnt high enough ilvl or didnt titanforge. Mythic+ is idiotic game design meant to keep you playing longer, but ultimately results in player fatigue and frustration. Because in classic, once a piece of loot finally dropped, that was it. You didnt need it to drop at the highest ilvl.
Its just too much candy and personal loot takes away from community. All of this together means modern wow is exhausting and not fun to play also that its simultaneously more boring as well. And it absolutely isnt harder.
My point wasnât that running the same content on end didnât exist in classic. My point was the drive to go up a tier in difficulty to receive the same loot, but better quality (totally ignoring WF/TF) is not overly compelling.
Itâs similar, but different in that when youâre farming MC when AQ is live itâs because you really want thunderfury which is a specific item that your guild has set its sight on getting for you. When we transition from heroic to mythic Iâm going for the same item but better quality. In the argument I laid out I canât imagine people wanting to go through every difficulty available for increasingly better items they already have. Thus my point about people creating their own desired ceiling of difficulty, whether thatâs normal or mythic or +15 or +5.
This is where the old design succeeds which was my biggest point. Since you couldnât do LFR MC back then if you wanted those epics you had to do MC which meant you had to raid. If you didnât want it or just couldnât you were left to your own content of smaller raids or dungeons or chasing down profession items, etc. Today if you want my gear you can queue into LFR and get it, but at a lower quality and the idea of quality increase is not overly compelling enough for people to step up.
Classic is far more of an RPG than Retail.
And in RPGâs the famous catchphrase is: âYou make the adventureâ.
Classic isnât about difficulty or technical challenge. Its about having fun with friends and guildmates in a place where challenge exists, at whatever level.
I think:
Addressed multiple parts of your complaint.
As to other aspects of what you brought up, again, the problem isnât that the Mythic+ content is available. The problem is how it is gated, or placed on a revolving door in some cases.
At a meta level, it also gets into the problem of in Classic there was only ONE version of every instance. So you only needed to find somebody wanting to run UBRS. Not somebody looking for UBRS Mythic 12 key runs, with requisite itemlevel/player stats being checked before being allowed in the group.
Some of those mechanics only work in the context of a cross-realm LFG system, megaservers, or âin houseâ (guild/friend list) groups. The chances of finding a random pick-up to fill in the specific need you have would be near zero.
This also isnât to mention the problems such a system creates for new 60âs looking for a ânormal modeâ run of UBRS. So obviously the mechanics involved donât transfer across to different versions of the game very well.
In a âClassic+â type scenario though, I could see Mythic+ type content being at least somewhat viable in the 20/40 man raid content, as guild level undertakings.
To be fair though, TOTC wasnât a great raid. Unless you meant the dungeon, which it wasnât a great dungeon either.
Running things on different difficulties for gear would be exhausting. Its all dependent though on your goals and your teams goals. To some gear is everything, to others gear is just acquiring things thatll get you to your actual goal (completion of the hardest content) .
If you play for gear, then yeah the current system would feel bad. The amount of difficulties though serve a purpose and judging by the population increase in the activity its serving its purpose.
Classic is a game.
Retail is a chore.
In some ways. You could argue pulling one mob at a time and drinking and eating after every pull is more of a chore. Not every aspect of Vanilla is better than Retail and its all subjective anyway.
I can see someone has not healed a brand new Uldir on normal just after it opened and we were not geared yet.
Despite all the graphical improvements and conveniences that I enjoy, I had more fun on the stress tests when I participated. At low level especially, loot is just abundant. You get a lot more interesting quest items at the cost of âgearâ.
There is dynamic flow to leveling vs a much more static pace on retail. Sure it takes longer but you can feel improvements or setbacks. You can still chain pull too, just at a bit slower pace with bandages, potions.
Classic is far from perfect but the imperfections donât detract from the fun. They do on live, despite being more polished of a game.
Ignoring the e-peen stroking mythic levels encourage, trying to compare the difficulty of the two games is like comparing apples to oranges.
Vanilla (and hopefully Classic) challenge arose from management of resources and threat, and planning/preparation for fights, plus a heavier emphasis on leveling challenge.
Retail seems to base its challenge more on twitch reflexes and knowledge of the fight or heavy reliance on mods to know the fight for you.
Theyâre both very different, and the âdifficultyâ of each may be perceived very differently by individual players. This is a good thing; I feel the games are for different audiences, with some nice overlap.
The difference in retail and Vanilla is that in retail its all mechanic based because they have stripped everything else out for the most part.
Leveling, gearing, classes, heck just about everything but mythic is brain dead easy. Mythic level content has to be mechanically difficult because there is nothing else left.
I dps all those bosses and there was never an issue even in mother when u have different rooms. Only hard boss was the one with the diseases.
BINGO Thatâs the one I was going to specifically mention but thought it would go over some peoples heads ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
Talk about tunnel vision and constant heal management. Mana management. Mind you, I was healing on a great guild raid that was NOT a hardcore raid and if it were not for our weekly runs some of these great people would never have seen any of the raid content. BUT sugar!!! I was running OOM as a mistweaver!!!
Smiling thinking about the good times and frustrating times wiping to that big blob of garbage!!
Yea that boss was cancerous. But all others were pretty easy. Iâm looking forward to gnome raid
No thank you. Multiple difficulties for things was a horrible thing to add to the game, as it breaks the whole idea of the game being an adventure, as well as making everything feel pointless.
Which feels more epic:
The whole concept of hard modes just made the game lose all that anticipation and feeling of epicness that came with getting to a new boss. And for the record, I was most of my wow time a casual raiderâŚ
When in woltk, they introduced hard modes and we ended up clearing trying the same bosses over again just in harder modes, I remember thinking âWhy do we bother doing this? Weâve already cleared all contentâ. I honestly lost a lot of desire to raid due to this, and ended up taking large breaks waiting for content before finally saying f-this.
âHard modesâ were âheroic dungeonsâ in TBC. While they hadnât scaled it up for the 10/25 man content of the time, I enjoyed the challenge all the same.
But that sill is âthere are two version of this instanceâ rather than 20+ iterations of it.
Honestly, Iâd almost be okay with âcatchup gearâ if it was locked behind a hard mode/mythic+ iteration of the same content. At least make them earn the stuff, instead of handing the stuff out like itâs candy.